World after Corona Virus

[á´…eparted]

 

[ceecee]

@ceecee when you discuss the fascism thing I couldn't help but think of my world history teacher from two semesters ago, when Trump was elected and Fascism was becoming the big buzz word to call anyone who was Trump, related to Trump, or otherwise was republican but may not even support Trump. He made a whole lecture on what Fascism truly was and why many of the people deemed fascist really are not fascist. He asked people to stop using it as a buzzword. Not every dictatorship is a fascist regime even. It is just people making an insult out of the term. Also in history Fascists have been both right and left in retrospect, so being a republican or a liberal doesn't make you a fascist necessarily. Let us not bring pejoratives into the conversation.

in a retrospect for everyone, I hope we make some positive changes from this entire thing.

The sociologist that first used the term "left fascism" also retracted saying that. He was attempting to distance the Frankfurt School from the violent left protests from the German Student Union. Read up on him - Jürgen Habermas

But fascism is far-right, authoritarian ultra-nationalist ideology and it is economically driven - autarky is a major goal of almost all fascist governments.

Moving into more recent times, liberal fascism is something someone like Jonah Goldberg wants people to think is totally widespread and a real threat to Americans - which means to right wing ideology and conservative values. Conservatives that don't support Trump should speak out against what people like Jonah Goldberg say and write but I never hear it. Because they are afraid to or have too much to lose by speaking out is up for debate.

That said you should read his book - I did - Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning.

 

[ceecee]

Well, to be fair, there are conservative Democrats, which are most Democrat. It's a center right party. But the really overt conservative Dems are an endangered species, much like Bigfoot. I mean Darryl.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

There could be and there use to be but not anymore. When did you last see one in the wild? Both parties are ideological coherent, Republicans especially.

I don’t understand your question. Conservative Republicans generally try to conserve the Constitution (muh 2A! “Cold, dead fingers...” etc.) which is a liberal document.

 

[ceecee]

No one has posted this yet:

‘We can’t go back to normal’: how will coronavirus change the world? | World news | The Guardian

It doesn't say much in terms of predictions, but it's a nice starting point, I think.

I read that too. Now everyone knows HOW YOOOUUU GOONNAAA PAY FOR IT??!! is just bullshit, we could always have working from home, the gig economy is the new serfdom and tethering healthcare to a job, kind of a bad idea.

 

[ceecee]

I don’t understand your question. Conservative Republicans generally try to conserve the Constitution (muh 2A! “Cold, dead fingers...” etc.) which is a liberal document.

Show me a liberal Republican, currently employed by the US taxpayers, not an independent and not a libertarian. A member of the GOP.

I can show you members of the Democrat Party who are conservative.

Kyrsten Sinema
Joe Manchin
Doug Jones
Henry Cuellar
Dan Lipiniski (but no longer, he can move and run as a R)
Nancy Pelosi

 

[Earl Grey]

I read that too. Now everyone knows HOW YOOOUUU GOONNAAA PAY FOR IT??!! is just bullshit, we could always have working from home, the gig economy is the new serfdom and tethering healthcare to a job, kind of a bad idea.

I read the article.

I really liked this bit,

“In a totally rational world, you might assume that an international pandemic would lead to greater internationalism,” says the historian Mike Davis, a renowned American chronicler of the disasters incubated by globalisation. For Davis, who wrote a book about the threat of avian flu in 2005, pandemics are a perfect example of the kind of crises to which global capitalism (with its constant movement of people and goods) is particularly vulnerable, but that the capitalist mindset (with its inability to think in terms beyond profit) cannot address. “In a rational world, we would be ramping up production of basic essential supplies – test kits, masks, respirators – not only for our own use, but for poorer countries, too. Because it’s all one battle. But it’s not necessarily a rational world. So there could be a lot of demonisation and calls for isolation. Which will mean more deaths and more suffering worldwide.”

I will always be salty that it takes huge movements for these kinds of things to be set in motion. I can't believe it takes a disaster to bring these benefits. Just give us all these benefits before disaster strikes and we will all march forward with net gains. It's like ignoring a squeaky wheel till it finally busts out. The fact that we have to pay for these benefits with lives is ... terrible. If anything I hope that in the future this can be avoided, people actually fund and listen to experts, healthcare is more robust and public measures are more thorough, but that feels like wishful thinking.

At least now people will wash their hands.

 

[ceecee]

I read the article.

I really liked this bit,


I will always be salty that it takes huge movements for these kinds of things to be set in motion. I can't believe it takes a disaster to bring these benefits. Just give us all these benefits before disaster strikes and we will all march forward with net gains. It's like ignoring a squeaky wheel till it finally busts out. The fact that we have to pay for these benefits with lives is ... terrible. If anything I hope that in the future this can be avoided, people actually fund and listen to experts, healthcare is more robust and public measures are more thorough, but that feels like wishful thinking.

Personally, I like to think that the planet has been telling humans - Fuck around and find out - for a long time. Now we're finding out.

At least now people will wash their hands.

Inshallah

Wash your hands
Don't touch your face
Stay home

 

[á´…eparted]

At least now people will wash their hands.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Show me a liberal Republican, currently employed by the US taxpayers, not an independent and not a libertarian. A member of the GOP.

I can show you members of the Democrat Party who are conservative.

Kyrsten Sinema
Joe Manchin
Doug Jones
Henry Cuellar
Dan Lipiniski (but no longer, he can move and run as a R)
Nancy Pelosi

I’m saying “Liberal” is the ideological basis of both parties. Although, the “Left” is the more coherent of the two. The Right is fairly incoherent, historically (and spiritually) speaking, but that’s because the Right is populated by historically ignorant Catholics and Protestants, although Protestantism is more coherent with Liberalism proper.

The Right sort of have this internal battle going on within themselves of which document takes precedence: the Bible or the Constitution.

The Left has no internal battles like that because the only document they cherrypick from is the Constitution, and if they do claim themselves to be Christian, the Bible usually plays second fiddle for them anyway, so the Left actually stays consistent with Liberalism.

Long story short: it’s easier to call the Right out due to their double-mindedness.

American Civic Religion: Americanism, the religion for the secular American

 

[á´…eparted]

I have a real problem with people throwing around the term "fascist" knowing very little on the subject. Could the US slip into fascism? Yes but that could have happened at any time. Is Trump a fascist? No, I doubt he even grasps what it is. But there are people very close to him that certainly do and that are creating policy and donors that very much want, at the least, an authoritarian president.

The GOP and most Dems are actually to blame here - they allow this to run unchecked because they all benefit from it. The ones that try to fight it are outgunned and they eventually give up to varying degrees. I want people to understand what actual fascism is, how it generally fails when democracy is strong and how the resistance to it have been with us all along. Everyone in the US should be inherently anti-fash, we fought a war against the ideology. Because why wouldn't you be?

Here are some positives:

There is a political uprising coming. COVID made it unstoppable. 6.6 million newly unemployed as of today. Bet against it at your own peril.

The de-militarization of American patriotism - More people will start to understand patriotism more as cultivating the health and life of your community, rather than blowing up someone else’s community. Perhaps (and I have already seen this) people will direct that - Thank you for your service - to doctors, nurses and health professionals that have been saving, not killing people.

A return of serious science and expertise - The US has become a fundamentally unserious country, mostly due to Trump and the MAGA movement being taken seriously and handed power and people actually thinking their opinion carries as much weight as expertise and knowledge on matters they have NO idea about. .Why does everyone know Dr. Fauci? Because he's an expert. Why are there death threats against Dr. Fauci? The same reason Trump is president.

Elections and voting - this will completely change. Online, mail, election "day" will now be election "month". This is already happening in many states, it will be national as people experience the convenience of early voting and/or voting by mail, they won’t want to give it up. More convenience will generate higher voter turnout, potentially transforming partisan competition in America.

A roll back of hyper-individualism - I think that a lot of people see that when this ends, the need will be to reorient our politics and make substantial new investments in public goods—for health, especially—and public services. You are watching in real time what happens when this is ignored.

Civic federalism - This is something I have been learning about and working towards for awhile. Civic federalism in which states and localities become centers of justice, solidarity and far-sighted democratic problem-solving. There are localities handling the pandemic better than others and often much better than the federal government.

Health care - A more efficient, far more resilient government approach will replace our failed, 40-year experiment with market-based incentives to meet essential health needs. Full stop. No one requires further explanation on this.

One idea I have heard about would be fantastic. Virtual congress. Congresspeople to return to their districts and start the process of virtual legislating—permanently. It's medically necessary at the moment but imagine - Lawmakers will be closer to the voters they represent and more likely to be sensitive to local perspectives and issues. As they should be. A virtual Congress is harder to lobby, as the endless parties and receptions that lobbyists throw in Washington will be harder to replicate across the whole nation.

It may also help solve a large problem - The House has not grown meaningfully in size since the 1920s, which means that a representative, on average, speaks for 770,000 constituents, rather than the 30,000 the Founding Fathers mandated. If we demonstrate that a virtual Congress can do its job as well or better using 21st-century technologies, rather than 18th-century ones, perhaps we could return the house to the 30,000:1 ratio George Washington prescribed.

I'm not saying these will happen the day after Covid is done. But most are going to be inevitable. Trauma always invokes change.

Well, what has recently happened in Hungary is fascism, though it doesn't look so on the face of it simply because the public majority supports it or is fine with it. It may end up not being so, but only in hindsight if this governmental change is honorably reverted. The lack of a timeline though, and Orbán's history of acting towards fascist ideals (like his attack on universities and education as one example) makes me think that won't occur. It may be more accurate for me to say authoratarianism when I say fascism in some cases, but I generally use the latter since they are linked, and not everyone really gets or understand what the former is. When I speak of those things I do so with a bit of shock element on purpose, because if we don't make people aware of the risk - which is very real - we stand a higher risk of falling prey to it.

That aside, I do agree that all of these points are possible things to change in the wake of the pandemic, I am just unsure of the timeline. If the GOP finds a way to retain power by the end of the year then these things won't come to the US for years, probably multiple decades. If the Democrats managed to gain control and not fall prey to old GOP tactics then we will see these things in a few years. I just have so little faith in the percentage of the public that hasn't listened and still isn't listening in the wake of this. Maybe this could change once things start to wind down and most of who will be infected and affected have been.

I saw some report that the unemployent number could theoretically reach 47mil at maximum (an insane number). That will certainly force change in the mindset of many people, but I just don't have faith in the resilliancy of that change. Racism and so many isms run so deep beyond accessible awareness in folks, and I don't trust that those won't be worked to make people want to go "go back to the way things were". That, and GOP folks that retain power and aren't at some material risk of being removed are going to do everything possible to prevent it, including scorched earth tactics. I guess you could say I have hope these things will come to the US within the next several years, but I don't have faith.

Outside of the US though in many places these changes will occur, and globally they will have to one way or another or else the regions that resist will crumble and be forced off the adult table by those who do.

 

[ceecee]

I’m saying “Liberal” is the ideological basis of both parties. Although, the “Left” is the more coherent of the two. The Right is fairly incoherent, historically (and spiritually) speaking, but that’s because the Right is populated by historically ignorant Catholics and Protestants, although Protestantism is more coherent with Liberalism proper.

The Right sort of have this internal battle going on within themselves of which document takes precedence: the Bible or the Constitution.

The Left has no internal battles like that because the only document they cherrypick from is the Constitution, and if they do claim themselves to be Christian, the Bible usually plays second fiddle for them anyway, so the Left actually stays consistent with Liberalism.

Long story short: it’s easier to call the Right out due to their double-mindedness.

American Civic Religion: Americanism, the religion for the secular American

I asked a very straightforward question, minus constitutional or religious nuance. I'm not interested in having a conversation about either but you piped up when fascism was mentioned. If you don't support the fash, then I'm not talking about you.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

I asked a very straightforward question, minus constitutional or religious nuance. I'm not interested in having a conversation about either but you piped up when fascism was mentioned. If you don't support the fash, then I'm not talking about you.

I piped up when Republicanism was described as mutually exclusive to Liberalism (which Fascism as a political movement is also a product of, but that wasn’t the point I was making).

 

[Red Herring]

Right now too much is unclear to know what the next year or two will bring. It will probably also depend a lot on where in the world you live. I expect Europe to be out of the worst virus-wise in a few weeks, America to take severe hits but eventually recover and the effects on developing countries to be tremendous.

The economic development will depend a lot on how long the lockdowns will last and how flexible governments and businesses react to the challenges. You can make up for a few lost weeks of production, but a business gone bankrupt is a business gone bankrupt. Those countries that have little labor protection will likely be more affected than places with more of it as fewer people will lose their jobs. I do think the "system" will likely recover though within a few years. maybe with a few tweaks, i.e. more government intervention, less laissez-faire and more local contral of essential production (food, medical supplies, etc)-

I don't think totalitarian states will necessarily fare better during the crises, they might even lose support, when mismanagement becomes harder to ignore. The EU itself could be at a make or break point. They will have to help Italy and Spain. They likely will. Nobody seriously doubts they need and will get help. Right now the debate is more about whether to use special bonds (which would mean the richer countries would assume responsibility for debts these countries accumulated before Corona hit) or the emergency fund (meant for situations like this and linked to tighter controls). I totally understand the anger in these countries as they are told that the North doesn't help, especially as imposed austerity measures contributed to the fatal shortages in their hospital systems. However, here in the North there is also a bit of frustration about Italy mismanaging for years, voting terrible demagogues as leaders, insulting the rest of the continent and then demanding help from them. IF the EU gets their act together though (and I haven't given up on that hope just yet) they might rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of a lot of people. For the first time ever the German economic advirsory board told the government that it was in Germany's interest to save poorer neighbots rather than just look out for number one (as they had always previously recommended these last two decades).

As for everyday live. Restrictions will likely be lifted progressively but some new habits might stick - mainly home office work and increased online shopping. That might cost some jobs but create new ones ...and it might be good news for the environment. The reduction in economic activity has already shown some positive results in that regard and might, just might, be the necessary wake up call. There is a lot we can do without. There is a lot we can do in a smarter way. We are capable of faster and more radical changes than previously assumed.


The short term is completely unclear but likely ugly. The mid term will be chaotic and a lot depends on the next few weeks and months. The long term though actually has me cautiously optimistic. If you look at human development over the centuries, life has continuously improved. The moments that people at the time most perceived as the end of the world as they knew it and extremely anxiety-inducing did have a very high human costs but where regularly followed by massive improvement in quality of life and general cultural/civilatory advances. One of the greatest jumps in human progress came after the enormous deathcount of the Great Plague. Both World Wars were followed by years of boom and social advances. Crises can be a catalyst for positive change and it frequently is.

 

[Maou]

I think it will result in an overall positive change. Since I was against Globalism to begin with, and the Coronavirus proved all the reasons why you should not have a service based economy. I do like how the article pretty much stated how Trump was right about a lot of things in trade without saying his name. I also fully support an increase in civic nationalism. I hope countries will have a little more respect for the importance of boarders after this as well.

 

[Nicodemus]

I think it will result in an overall positive change. Since I was against Globalism to begin with, and the Coronavirus proved all the reasons why you should not have a service based economy. I do like how the article pretty much stated how Trump was right about a lot of things in trade without saying his name. I also fully support an increase in civic nationalism. I hope countries will have a little more respect for the importance of boarders after this as well.

Once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion.

 

[Vendrah]

The future seems confusing for the moment, but I think that many things in the future are already set.

I do really appreciate this decay of neoliberalism and hopes the religion of the market doesnt ever come back with its de-humanity and pure selfishness, although these two latter adjectives can and should return in many other forms. But I do think it will still run strong in some places, and sadly I do think it might run in my country still since there are lot of people here defending the economy and hiding/manipulating information.

I'm really appreciating the debate, because I really still see lots of possibilities. I like the change, but I also fear it. And I do fear an authoritarian wave, I do appreciate some freedom.

 

[noname3788]

The future seems confusing for the moment, but I think that many things in the future are already set.

I do really appreciate this decay of neoliberalism and hopes the religion of the market doesnt ever come back with its de-humanity and pure selfishness, although these two latter adjectives can and should return in many other forms. But I do think it will still run strong in some places, and sadly I do think it might run in my country still since there are lot of people here defending the economy and hiding/manipulating information.

I'm really appreciating the debate, because I really still see lots of possibilities. I like the change, but I also fear it. And I do fear an authoritarian wave, I do appreciate some freedom.

No worries, neoliberalism will be back, but it might take a while. Right now, people just seek for safety and will likely install emergency mechanisms and try to make their supply chains and trade partners less vulnerable. Once this has settled, we'll go back to maximizing profits at all costs.

 

[Vendrah]

No worries, neoliberalism will be back, but it might take a while. Right now, people just seek for safety and will likely install emergency mechanisms and try to make their supply chains and trade partners less vulnerable. Once this has settled, we'll go back to maximizing profits at all costs.

 

[typologyenthusiast]

Some members have seemingly lost confidence in EU.
Like Serbia President Alexandar Vucic

and some Italians

It might be even worse if EU doesn't response well. EU might even lose more member after Brexit that happened just the beginning of the year because of confidence issue. In addition, Hungary politics is opinionated to have killed democracy.The EU Watches as Hungary Kills Democracy - The Atlantic

I sense that in the worst case EU could even expel Hungary
Hungary's emergency law 'incompatible with being in EU', say MEPs group | Hungary | The Guardian