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Trump vs. Biden

anticlimatic

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Funny how a troll for years on this forum still manages to wring endless serious responses out of other members.

I don't really see the point in investing well-thought and mature viewpoints to someone who has already proven over the years they have no real interest in engaging in good faith. It also normalizes the behavior.

If the political sub-forum here were ever to actually "normalize," it would acquire a roughly 50/50 split of right wing voices to left wing voices, which then would better mirror reality. Trying to insult, and bully, and shame away the single dissenting voice (as far as I can tell) in this overwhelmingly skewed leftist echo chamber would accomplish the exact opposite of normalization. This place is the ideological equivalent of a recently de-segregated southern diner in the 1960s, and everybody in here (including the shop owners themselves, apparently) can't stop spitting on the black guy just trying to enjoy his coffee.
 

Jaguar

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.

victim-mentality.jpg
 

Tater

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This place is the ideological equivalent of a recently de-segregated southern diner in the 1960s, and everybody in here (including the shop owners themselves, apparently) can't stop spitting on the black guy just trying to enjoy his coffee.

I'm so tired of hearing you compare yourself to an oppressed black man.

What is this "coffee" composed of? Lib tears?
 

ygolo

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Yeah I feel you, dude. The right has some serious trust issues, and the less or casually informed members end up going down all kinds of rabbit holes. There's no shortage of things to be concerned about right now, so I often feel like this is a game of yelling your own concerns as loud as you can so they don't get drowned in the sea of other people yelling different concerns. My point with the cult thing is that nobody is in a cult. Reason and evidence will ultimately win the day, but until then in the sea of uncertainty, everybody has specific ideas that they even have the capacity to entertain, based on their unconscious interests and political priors. You might be a bad example as an independent, but how many people on the left would dismiss the idea of Russia hacking voting machines shortly after the 2016 election as ridiculous on its face- before any investigation occurred? How many republicans would bother even entertaining the possibility? People have much the same form- it's their content that's arbitrary. The MSM might come through with hard facts once in a while, but the overwhelming spin and bias puts everything they say into question. Whose fault is that? Would anyone on the left trust the media if it was 100 branches of Fox News, and only one CNN standing in contrast to it? Or would they trust the only news source speaking anything close to their own language? The media thing is a big mess, and a big problem. We need trust in....something/anything. The overton window must be reopened somehow. I know I'm doing my best, I assume we all are.

The unfortunate thing is most people, all along the political spectrum, are casually informed people. But the casual information on both sides of the spectrum wasn't as far out of the mainstream as it is now. Sure there was spin and commentary that was clearly biased. But for the most part, Fox News and MSN (when not on talking head shows) reported the same facts about the same events when they chose to cover the same things (which admittedly became more and more rare). This was still true during this past election as well. People on all parts of the spectrum still train to be professionals at particular types of work. Most people put the pride in being good at what they do over choosing to support one political party or another (only the muckrakers, pundits, spinsters, and other of that sort aim to distort).

When the leader of the free-world puts out unsubstantiated (and clearly self-serving) "information", mainstream media will report what he said or tweeted or whatever. But they are also obligated to say that the claims are unsubstantiated, because otherwise, casual people will tend to default to believing that what the president said is true...and then the caveat about claims being unsubstantiated makes the mainstream "against" him, I suppose.

At that point, another meta-game is played where he says that the mainstream is against him, and this has a draw to certain pathological emotional triggers that bypass reasoning. Mainly the people who get pulled in feel like victims of the world that isn't giving them what they feel they deserve. They feel like they are "special" people who know better than all the people who have made it their life's work to find the truth in their particular domains.

It used to be that we had government conspiracy theorists on the right, and anti-vaxers, as well as believers in "alternative medicine" (homeopathy, crystal healing, and general woo) on the left. Somehow Trump galvanized a large portion of the nut cases on the left to join him on the new right. This may, in someway, be impressive from a political perspective. But it is creating a party split where nut cases flock to one side over the other. Gaining political power by relying on joining in on the feelings of both being victimized, and "special" in combination (when clearly in contradiction to the agreed upon mainstream facts) I believe are very cult-like.

Cults do exist (Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidian, Jim Jones, Charles Manson...), so "Nobody is in a cult" I will take as hyperbole. I believe, by this, you are saying that it is always possible to see how people come to particular conclusions--no matter how far fetched. Perhaps this statement is true. But even if one can follow how a conclusion is reached, this fact does not make the far-fetched conclusion true or even reasonably plausible.

For something to be true, it needs to correspond to events that takes place in our reality. If you are thinking critically about the information that you get, with the aim of understanding the actual events that take place in our reality and the principles that govern them, it would be difficult to see you as part of a cult.

On the other hand, if you decide what is true based on what would be beneficial to you, what would be comfortable to you, what would make you feel more special than others, or any emotional impulse other than a desire to accurately find and report the events as they take place in our reality, or a desire to accurately find and report the principles that govern those events, then you are participating in rationalization rather than critical thinking.

Cult members have to rationalize to a significant extent to hold onto their beliefs.

As for prognosis, I hope you are right. I hope that in the long run reasonable, empathetic, critically thinking people will be back in control of both parties. I also hope that once this happens that there is not a cycle back to the way things are now. However, given my current state of knowledge, believing this prognosis would be rationalization. I also have no need to believe in a particular prognosis of the state of our Democracy.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Something I've been reflecting on recently. A lot of the people I know in my life are Trump supporters (not saying Republicans, but specifically avid Trump supporters), and the reality is that they are actually a lot like him. Normal life interactions includes more benign exchanges, so that over the course of a life one can have relationships of varying sorts with these people, but if you look at their beliefs, objectively at behaviors, they are like him. I had a teacher who is actually very similar to Trump and supports him who was constantly trying to cross sexual and decency boundaries with me - sexually harassing type. Other people I was close to that seemed congenial and okay until they started talking about politics and then their racism and sexism was cringe-worthy. People who will say anything that doesn't agree with them is a lie. People who project their own moral failings. People who speak beautifully of empathy and love and then brag about smacking and hitting women when they have sex (happened on this forum btw). People I went to school with who raised their hands diligently for Bible class, but were vulgar and mean socially. Hypocrisy of morals, overt 'isms', arrogance, subjective reasoning that benefits self, and toxic positivity are embedded into American culture. The problem isn't Trump. It is these people we know, and sometimes loved, who are destructive and irrational to their core.

America is a bullying culture. It is energized by social violation, vulgarity, and cruelty. Trump exists because of the jocks giving swirlies in the toilet to the kid who won the science fair. When stepping back and looking over a lifetime, nothing is different with Trump, it is only that everything I have ever known to create distrust socially now has the word "president" in front of it.
 

Red Memories

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I think the problem above is...there are many Republicans who did not and will not support Trump. I feel like "republican" and "trump supporter" are not synonymous things.

My grandfather made an interesting saying yesterday that surprised me. Now keep in mind I disagree with this point, but he sees the progressive left as the "communist" party trying to arise in America and that they actually want to destroy this country.
He said with everything that's happened, Trump would've made a good democrat.

So he basically is admitting to seeing the "authoritarian" within Trump. Which isn't a republican or a democrat thing. Trump is his own entity and we can fight that accordingly. I don't really think Trump's shit job is a hill to die on though...
 

Red Memories

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It would be interesting to see how much electoral college interferes with that^ representation.

I really want it to be adjusted the way I saw two smaller states doing it. There are sections and electoral votes are given accordingly. I think it would allow those who feel their voices are getting drowned by big city votes to still have their representation but the larger more progressive areas to accordingly get theirs.

The districting issue will probably be so dramatic though...
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I loathe to share the video at the bottom of this post because it always makes me want to vomit, but it demonstrates that a religious fervor surrounds Trump in a way different from other presidents. The closest comparison I know of are the propaganda videos of Stalin.

There is a cult forming around Trump, but the scale is so much larger than typical cults, so controls operate differently. I hope it fizzles out because I do think Americans can go from cult-level fervor to fickle distraction. We have the idolization of a central figure whose word is truth even in the face of contradicting evidence. There is a collective persecution narrative and savior figure. There is a call to violence, justification to cause harm to enemies.

For the record I think Trump raped that 13-year-old as described in the deposition, and I hope this and other cases are tried in court. He was at the Epstein parties for years, neighbors, praised Epstein who was charged with these crimes, and has a long history of making sexual comments about minors, and walking into the Miss Teen USA dressing rooms.

He signed documents against human trafficking, but also created policies like separating children at the border to facilitate supply, which organizations against human trafficking pleaded with the White House to change these policies which were enacted en masse under Trump. This is standard abuse protocol - make an opposite appearance of the violation you commit.

I understand why some people would not share this video, but to ignore Trump instead. It highlights to me the complete break with reason, the indulgence into an emotionally driven persecution complex and savior narrative. Starting at minute 4:00 we see cuts between Trump and Jesus, Trump and Spartacus. Watch these cut-to's and consider how it looks to the women violated by him during their adolescent years.

 

The Cat

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Something I've been reflecting on recently. A lot of the people I know in my life are Trump supporters (not saying Republicans, but specifically avid Trump supporters), and the reality is that they are actually a lot like him. Normal life interactions includes more benign exchanges, so that over the course of a life one can have relationships of varying sorts with these people, but if you look at their beliefs, objectively at behaviors, they are like him. I had a teacher who is actually very similar to Trump and supports him who was constantly trying to cross sexual and decency boundaries with me - sexually harassing type. Other people I was close to that seemed congenial and okay until they started talking about politics and then their racism and sexism was cringe-worthy. People who will say anything that doesn't agree with them is a lie. People who project their own moral failings. People who speak beautifully of empathy and love and then brag about smacking and hitting women when they have sex (happened on this forum btw). People I went to school with who raised their hands diligently for Bible class, but were vulgar and mean socially. Hypocrisy of morals, overt 'isms', arrogance, subjective reasoning that benefits self, and toxic positivity are embedded into American culture. The problem isn't Trump. It is these people we know, and sometimes loved, who are destructive and irrational to their core.

America is a bullying culture. It is energized by social violation, vulgarity, and cruelty. Trump exists because of the jocks giving swirlies in the toilet to the kid who won the science fair. When stepping back and looking over a lifetime, nothing is different with Trump, it is only that everything I have ever known to create distrust socially now has the word "president" in front of it.

Donald Trump is one of many. Because Donald Trump is an obvious(unsubtle) manifestation of symptom of a greater sickness. It systemically existed before Trump, it definitely shaped Trump, as in one way or another it's shaped us all...

 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If the political sub-forum here were ever to actually "normalize," it would acquire a roughly 50/50 split of right wing voices to left wing voices, which then would better mirror reality.

No it wouldn't. If there were the same amount of conservatives as liberals in this country, you wouldn't need the electoral college.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Donald Trump is one of many. Because Donald Trump is an obvious(unsubtle) manifestation of symptom of a greater sickness. It systemically existed before Trump, it definitely shaped Trump, as in one way or another it's shaped us all...

And for everyone who plays games defending Trump and projecting his guilt onto others, I see someone kissing the ass of a man who attacked a little 13-year-old girl, whose first introduction to sex was begging him and Epstein to stop.

I know it is horrific to bring all of this up, but Trump would be Stalin given the reigns. He was already starting to find ways to punish entire states that didn't give him what he wanted. Of course he would starve a nation if it stroked his ego to do it. He is a monster of the same proportions.

 

anticlimatic

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I'm so tired of hearing you compare yourself to an oppressed black man.

What is this "coffee" composed of? Lib tears?

If you're tired of hearing it then quit acting like a collective of toxic bigots. My coffee consists of perspective widening education via conversation with differing ones. Maybe if more of you tried that sometime you'd have a platform more rooted in reality instead of the current ideological holocaust that's left you all woefully ignorant regarding how the other half of the country thinks and operates, due to nobody on the right wanting anything to do with you people. Or is staying ignorant the goal...?

It used to be that we had government conspiracy theorists on the right, and anti-vaxers, as well as believers in "alternative medicine" (homeopathy, crystal healing, and general woo) on the left. Somehow Trump galvanized a large portion of the nut cases on the left to join him on the new right. This may, in someway, be impressive from a political perspective. But it is creating a party split where nut cases flock to one side over the other.

Ha! This is great. I never thought of that, but yes- the former hippie bastion of anti-vaxing homeopathic medicine and conspiracy theorists is now a mostly right wing subset of nutters- but don't forget that the left is now the party of moral intolerance, censorship, doxing, book burning, de-platforming, governmental authoritarianism, the idea that people should be judged based strictly on their race, and a number of anti-scientific notions like the idea that biological sex is a "spectrum" and that there's no difference between men and women- so I don't think anti-science/history has any particular "side" politically speaking. How weird that the nuttier wings inverted? No wonder there's people of older generations that have no idea where to cast their ideological support. I'm kind of in that demographic as older-ish, but back when moral authoritarianism and censorship was a right wing thing (bush era), I had it out big time with other conservatives- friends and family- which makes it fairly easy for me to pick a "side" today, based strictly on how I personally categorize and prioritize my political and social priorities- which I think is what everyone does, or tries to do, to some extent. Now that classic individual liberty based enlightenment era liberalism has found a weird home with fiscal conservativism and working class competence, it's a very good fit for me.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It used to be that we had government conspiracy theorists on the right, and anti-vaxers, as well as believers in "alternative medicine" (homeopathy, crystal healing, and general woo) on the left. Somehow Trump galvanized a large portion of the nut cases on the left to join him on the new right. This may, in someway, be impressive from a political perspective. But it is creating a party split where nut cases flock to one side over the other. Gaining political power by relying on joining in on the feelings of both being victimized, and "special" in combination (when clearly in contradiction to the agreed upon mainstream facts) I believe are very cult-like.

He also gained a decent amount of support among militant anti-theists because of their anxieties about Islam. That's something I saw coming a loooong time ago.
 

Jaguar

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A child molester speaking out against molesting children. Right on with your toxic self.
 

The Cat

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And for everyone who plays games defending Trump and projecting his guilt onto others, I see someone kissing the ass of a man who attacked a little 13-year-old girl, whose first introduction to sex was begging him and Epstein to stop.

I know it is horrific to bring all of this up, but Trump would be Stalin given the reigns. He was already starting to find ways to punish entire states that didn't give him what he wanted. Of course he would starve a nation if it stroked his ego to do it. He is a monster of the same proportions.


He's certainly not defensible in my mind. he's a would be despot in addition to everything else.
 

Totenkindly

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I am not sure what more there is to say that has not already been said and witnessed on a daily basis...
 

Jaguar

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Opinion | Trump’s Lesson for the Media - The New York Times

Journalists should never again allow someone to create an alternative reality in order to seize the presidency.

MIAMI — I had the honor once of being kicked out of a Donald Trump news conference. I asked him a question he didn’t want to answer and a security guard threw me out. It happened on Aug. 25, 2015, in Dubuque, Iowa, during Mr. Trump’s first presidential campaign.

The news conference revealed with astonishing clarity who Mr. Trump really was: a dangerous populist, an anti-immigrant bully, and a threat to democracy and the free press.

And he still is. The people who amuse me most are those who think he's a conservative or a Republican. I laugh when he calls people RINOS. It's merely projection.
 
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