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Trump vs. Biden

Virtual ghost

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They cant find anyone better, because they choose who they want to win and prop them up, instead of actually being fair. Then change the DNC rules to get who they want in. They literally use the media as well, it is a fucking scam. They did it all through 2016 as well. Berni bros feeling the same shit Trump supporters have felt. And before that, Ron Paul.

Also, did Tulsi Gabbard drop out? People should vote for her.


Well the problem is that if young left leaning people aren't showing even for Bernie, the candidate they like in just about every poll. Why anyone thinks they will show up for Biden ? Especially if he will slap the named population a number of times. While in fact he should find some way to get closer to large alienated population that are clear democrats or left leaning independents. I doubts never Trump republicans are numerous as much as those two groups. Especially in key places like mid-west.


I don't know, to me all of this looks as one big gamble with unclear goals on the democratic side.





Tulsi is still in if I am not mistaken.
 

Nicodemus

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Yeah, nah. Democrats do not care who they vote for as long it has a D next to their name.
If that were true, Trump would not be president right now, nor would Joe Biden be the front-runner.

Get out of your bubble Nico. More people identify as Independant or Conservative, than Liberal.
Irrelevant. Biden is not a liberal and Trump is not a conservative.
 

Maou

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Well the problem is that if young left leaning people aren't showing even for Bernie, the candidate they like in just about every poll. Why anyone thinks they will show up for Biden ? Especially if he will slap the named population a number of times. While in fact he should find some way to get closer to large alienated population that are clear democrats or left leaning independents. I doubts never Trump republicans are numerous as much as those two groups. Especially in key places like mid-west.


I don't know, to me all of this looks as one big gamble with unclear goals on the democratic side.





Tulsi is still in if I am not mistaken.

Young people only make up a small portion of the voter base, and they didn't show up for Bernie yes. But that is why many people said Bernie shouldn't have gone that route to begin with. He alienated all the older voters as well, by doing so. That is why I felt he didn't have a chance, regardless if he got the nomination. As he is far left in terms of the average american.

I don't think any educated Democrat thinks Biden is going to win, and yes, they had far too many unfavorable candidates. It is because the party is pretty fractured in terms of policy and identity. Republicans right now, are more united than ever. Then if you watched any of the Veritas videos, you will know Bernie surrounded himself with some nutjobs, and that really sent up red flags for some people. I personally see Bernie as someone trying to take over the Democratic party like Trump did the Republican party. The issue though, is most of the Democrats totally disagree with him on many things. Trump at least had a majority of views that Republicans could get behind.
 

Virtual ghost

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As well he should, unless he is a reckless moron trying to kill people like Trump:

THE FACTS: People with preexisting medical problems have health insurance protections because of President Barack Obama’s health care law, which Trump is trying to dismantle. If you can believe it, while he's trying to dismantle it, he's lying to people about being the one who "saved" pre-existing conditions. Trump’s administration has been pressing in court for full repeal of the Obama-era law, including provisions that protect people with preexisting conditions from health insurance discrimination. Before the Affordable Care Act, any insurer could deny coverage — or charge more — to anyone with a preexisting condition who was seeking to buy an individual policy.

It's as insane as someone trying to drain your 401K plan all the way down to zero while telling you they're 'fighting for your retirement'.

Source: AP FACT CHECK: No, Trump didn't save preexisting conditions



Absolutely, this must be saved/kept. However that doesn't mean that this is the only thing you should offer in healthcare and that you can't provide upgrades or something really new (it doesn't even have to be medicare for all). Average people are getting depressed since they aren't expecting real changes from democratic side if they win 2020. What is problematic since the general trend is bad. I guess I am only tying to say that many seem to want more than just return to Obama years. Which weren't that stellar for many from what I understand.


Fine, Biden it is. But the establishment mush make him appear as he genuine cares about people (since he should).
 

Jaguar

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Absolutely, this must be saved/kept. However that doesn't mean that this is the only thing you should offer in healthcare

And who said it was? Not me. I'm for expanding Medicare, not pushing down the plunger and exploding an entire system in one sitting, while laughing like a small child eating a candy bar.

I guess I am only tying to say that many seem to want more than just return to Obama years.

As do I.
 

Virtual ghost

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And who said it was? Not me. I'm for expanding Medicare, not pushing down the plunger and exploding an entire system in one sitting, while laughing like a small child eating a candy bar.


As do I.


I am not really talking about you but the candidate. I still don't quite understand about what was Hillary's 2016 campaign was about and I see the real danger of that repeating in 2020. Maybe I am culturally biased but in my book more details should have surfaced in the primaries thus far.



In my country is election night with unclear results so I suppose I am somewhat jumpy. (the equivalent of your convention at the end of primaries).
 

Jaguar

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I am not really talking about you but the candidate.

He has already spoken about doing more than already exists.

I still don't quite understand about what was Hillary's 2016 campaign was about and I see the real danger of that repeating in 2020.

Then you don't understand why she lost.

Here in the USA, it's been widely discussed that people made a rather large mistake in thinking that Trump won because of Trump, rather than dealing with the reality of just how many Americans could not stand Hillary Clinton. "Clinton fatigue" is a widely used expression in the states. It took extraordinary effort to make her even appear likable. This has nothing to do with merely being a Democrat. When looking at the numbers in the 2020 primaries so far, it's obvious that Bernie appeared to be more popular than he really was because of anti-Clinton sentiment in 2016. So where you may have seen Hillary and Bernie's numbers close in a voting district in 2016, Biden blew Bernie off the map in the same district in 2020. Hillary=/= Biden. Not by a long shot.

Food for thought:

uf7gqam
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Biden still should talk about more than just norms and how much more awesome things were when he was Vice President, though. The virus stuff and the way Trump has bungled it gives Biden a very good chance to win this thing, though. (Republican relatives are going on about how the virus is about part of a Democratic plot to get get rid of Trump and create communism and take away all our freedoms. As insane as that sounds, it means they themselves think that this has an extremely negative impact on Trump's re-election chances.)
 

Virtual ghost

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He has already spoken about doing more than already exists.



True but I haven't noticed that there are core issues except beating Trump. What is more of a means than the goal. I simply claim that he doesn't have recognizable policies at this point. Therefore I am getting certain 2016 vibes.



Then you don't understand why she lost.

Here in the USA, it's been widely discussed that people made a rather large mistake in thinking that Trump won because of Trump, rather than dealing with the reality of just how many Americans could not stand Hillary Clinton. "Clinton fatigue" is a widely used expression in the states. It took extraordinary effort to make her even appear likable. This has nothing to do with merely being a Democrat. When looking at the numbers in the 2020 primaries so far, it's obvious that Bernie appeared to be more popular than he really was because of anti-Clinton sentiment in 2016. So where you may have seen Hillary and Bernie's numbers close in a voting district in 2016, Biden blew Bernie off the map in the same district in 2020. Hillary=/= Biden. Not by a long shot.

Food for thought:

uf7gqam


I know in general why she lost, she wasn't liked but what I wanted to say is that her campaign was fairly vague when it turned out that the Trump will put up a fight. While in my book she probably wouldn't lose in the case she had more memorable talking points (it was quite close). Plus that graph is probably saying what I am saying. You will get more support by moving somewhat more towards left than moving right, since going back to Obama years is in general holding course where the party is going.
 

Maou

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This debate is a fucking joke.
 

Tomb1

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dementia Joe with his Captain Obvious bullet points for how to combat coronavirus actually claimed we have been through Coronavirus before...the fuck
 

Jaguar

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“The Ebola crisis, in my view, exposes the dysfunctionality of our healthcare system,” the Vermont senator said. "The Ebola crisis is also, I think, exposing the cruelty, and the injustice, of our economy today."

Feel the Bern.
 

Virtual ghost

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Instead of empty talk on my part here is what in my opinion Joe should propose in campaign (and eventually do).




Stop taxing construction materials and make sure the major producers don't rise prices. This is because the country literally has to be rebuild and fixed in the terms of housing, industry and infrastructure. Therefore this would help in trying to turn the tide in infrastructure issues. The taxes should come from the income tax of builders (if at all).

Openly hammer the GOP on all of their anti-scientific rhetoric and try to explain to people why their arguing position is bad for the economy and how it actually boosts the uncompetitiveness and outsourcing.

Complete reboot of public education so that is supports the re-industrialization of the country. Force the high education to somewhat lower their prices.

Attack everyone on anti NATO rhetoric and try to explain why the alliance is vital for USA in the current global turmoil. Continue current pressure that the allies have a decent security spending and attack those that openly play with anti-democratic rhetoric and practices.

Reducing the number of bases abroad by a 1/4 or 1/3 but compensate in influence with adding a carrier or two, that should cost less than bases. Plus reduce the profit of arms seller for the sake of the budget. The similar goes for bombing for the sake of bombing.

Only gun confiscation that should be done is on clearly illegal ones that are out in the street. Confiscated stuff in general should be sold and the money should go into charity directly (if they are legal).

Go after big drug dealers, instead of every junky that has a few grams or a few pills.

Try to urge people to buy local product, for the country it is better that you give a local 8$ than that you give 5$ to a foreigner. Since too much focusing on saving money can simply "starve" the local production. In the case this isn't possible for some products people should at least try to buy more from other democracies. Since that saves in taxes and military spending. Also cutting on import and transportation is actually green policy. Plus a person should create the foundation that re-undustrialization has as much none fossil fuel energy sources as possible. In remote rural areas this can really work since energy is made on the spot that is remote.

Rise minimum wage about 50 cents every 6 months. So that economy can adjusts and through that measure it should be possible to cut welfare spending and the deficit.

Regarding Obamacare, turn the table and listen to the people about what are the problems in the details. So that the issues can be addresses from the perspective of a patient, especially if we aren't just taking about the money issues but actual treatment and "hospital dynamics "

Don't ban abortion but insist on better medical education to cut down the number of unwanted pregnancies, since those don't bring anything good to anyone.

Try to convince people to watch more quality and realistic TV program: Less guns, pain and reality TV. Especially since that is vital for fixing mass depression that makes sure people don't think straight anymore. Admitting that mass depression is a problem for many communities is vital for fixing the whole country.

Start a revision program that will outlaw at least the most dangerous substances in the food or meds.

Active advocating of recycling on all waste, especially since that can cut the import of materials.

Say you will fix the iconic problems, such as water in Flint.

Cutting out evident loop holes in law and taxation. This will help in fixing the image of the government and provide more tax money. Cut down on open fraud.

Organize a commision that will have the authority to review all forms in the country in order to make them clearer or reduce the number of copies necessary.

Reform of prison system so that it is sane again, as well as more fair. Make sure people in prison don't go out as more crazy then they went in.

Trying to actively sync everything you do in a way that it lowers the federal deficit, before car is off the cliff.

Etc.




This is why I find the discourse to be vague, since the arguments can be nailed in much more concrete fashion and number. Actually in my book you should start your campaign with one list like this one.
In other words do this and your opponents will struggle.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Thoughts about last night's debate:

-Return to Obama era policies is not enough. Even Obama knew a lot of his accomplishments and programs weren't enough, were the result of compromise with conservative dems and republicans. I don't fault Obama for this, but I do fault Biden for not thinking bigger and seeking to push forward (rather than backwards).

-I think Sanders made a strong case for M4A, in light of the coronavirus crisis. It goes beyond simply providing temporary free health care for people affected by this, as Biden wants to do. There are a lot of potential less direct health issues that can arise out of such a crisis, for instance mental health problems due to high anxiety and prolonged social distancing or the stress of loved ones getting sick, etc. Many people will be unable to afford treatment for those issues once the crisis has subsided. Also, having a universal system in place will make it easier to provide care for more people in potential future crises, whereas the system Biden wants will be less equipped for the impact of suddenly switching gears and providing temporary free coverage to all Americans. Biden kind of made Sanders' point in trying to argue against it. He also has failed to acknowledge that a majority of democratic voters do want M4A. They've compromised their values here to support Biden because they feel he is the better option to defeat Trump. He was very wishy-washy, kept talking about how Sanders doesn't say how he'll pay, even though this information can be found on Sanders' website as well as his page on "the youtube".

-Overall, Biden was very defensive and seemed agitated when called on his senate record, and at multiple points deflected and failed to answer for them, at one point flat out lying about what can easily be found on "the youtube". Then he had the nerve to complain that he wants to focus on the future (and presumably less on the past), yet didn't mind bringing up his own past achievements when it suited his arguments. Say what you want about Sanders, but at least he didn't flat out deny or lie about some of the less popular things he's said and done nearly as much as Biden did last night. Biden did little to earn my trust or faith last night, I was genuinely hoping for more from him.

-I didn't think it was a huge deal when either said they wanted a female VP. I think we all knew it was highly likely the next VP candidate will be a woman, it's just a question of who it will be. Sanders indirectly seemed to hint at Warren when he said he would be looking at progressive female politicians.

-It's also not enough that Sanders tell his supporters to support Biden if nominee. Biden still needs to earn their support. This is what Sanders seemed to be hinting at through much of the debate.

-Knock Sanders on the ebola confusion if you want, but Biden looked no better when he confused it with SARS and then downplayed it by comparing it to the less severe recent H1N1 scare (Trump has been criticized for similarly downplaying the threat of covid19). Sanders may have mixed up his virus names, but at least he seemed to be realizing the full impact of covid19 and addressing it accordingly. The virus name gaffe looked bad for both, but Sanders saved it at the last minute.

-No use of the word "malarkey" from Joe, though he did say "bingo" once. Disappointing. It's one of the more endearing things about Biden, that he's almost fashionably old school with the words he uses.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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dementia Joe with his Captain Obvious bullet points for how to combat coronavirus actually claimed we have been through Coronavirus before...the fuck

I think he meant the H1N1 crisis, although I did think it was foolish of him to downplay the current one as being similar to that crisis. This is way bigger than H1N1 or ebola. Not to say we can't learn from those crises and how they were handled, but COVID19 calls for unprecedented measures and Biden didn't really convince me he would take the threat all that seriously were he currently President.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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-No use of the word "malarkey" from Joe, though he did say "bingo" once. Disappointing. It's one of the more endearing things about Biden, that he's almost fashionably old school with the words he uses.

Even though I've made fun of him for it, I have found his hairy legs story during at the pool in Wilmington somewhat endearing. His lying about his past proposals to cut social security were not cool though.

Joe Biden has advocated cuts to Social Security for 40 years

Evidently, he was to the right of Republicans in the 80s on this issue.
 

Jaguar

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PolitiFact | Sanders’ misleading Social Security attack on Biden

Sanders’ current ad in heavy rotation in Florida has a picture of Biden under the words "Biden has advocated cutting Social Security for 40 years." A plain reading of that would be that Biden consistently sought to reduce benefit payments for most of his career. The reality is that Biden’s position has changed over time.

In roughly 10-year hops, starting in the 1970s, he went from calling for a 7% increase, then for a one-year freeze, then floated raising the retirement age, then backed a change in how benefits would increase, and has ended up today calling for higher benefits.


You people . . .
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Nowhere does it claim that this, from the article I posted immediately above yours, isn't true:

In the midst of that debate, Biden teamed up with Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley to call for a freeze on federal spending, and insisted on including Social Security in that freeze, even as the Reagan administration fought to protect the program from cuts. It was part of the Democratic approach at the time not just to match Republicans, but to get to their right at times as well, as Biden also did on criminal justice policy.

Indeed, from Politifact:

In 1984, Biden co-sponsored a proposal with two GOP senators to broadly freeze federal spending.
 
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