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The Impeachment Thread

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I am coming to believe more and more that there were 4 principal goals, none of which was the removal of the president: 1, hurt Sanders and Warren during the early primary season; 2, appease donors and the radical base; 3, hurt Trump for the general election; and 4, continue to cover up Obama presidency abuses.

The hurt Bernie and Liz reason would explain the month long delay.....

Not sure I understand how exactly it hurts them. I also don't understand why, if it's all bullshit, they won't allow witnesses. I get that you like questioning media narratives, and you're certainly not always wrong to do so, but I don't think there's much to the "an innocent man is being persecuted for political purposes" angle.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Not sure I understand how exactly it hurts them. I also don't understand why, if it's all bullshit, they won't allow witnesses. I get that you like questioning media narratives, and you're certainly not always wrong to do so, but I don't think there's much to the "an innocent man is being persecuted for political purposes" angle.

Every president defends the power of the executive branch against encroachment from the other branches. The rules about witnesses are the same as with Clinton.

The House could have done everything according to established constitutional law and gone to court to force witnesses in the House. They decided to not do that. They made other significant decisions that demonstrate they were not serious.

A serious impeachment bends over backwards to ensure the maximum rights to the president, which would make the process less of a partisan exercise and more of a solemn undertaking.

Nixon resigned not because the Democrats were aggressive, but because the Republicans were convinced Nixon had to go.

Clinton didn't resign because the Democrats decided that no matter the actual crime, it wasn't enough to warrant removal.

With needing 2/3rds of the Senate, impeachment really can't work unless it is bipartisan.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I wonder if Bernie and Warren suffer not so much because it pulls them from the campaign trail, but because GOP voters might then see them as part of the dem 'lynch mob' who voted in the senate against Trump. While Biden gets to say "I wasn't even in the senate and played no part in this"
 

Z Buck McFate

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I wonder if Bernie and Warren suffer not so much because it pulls them from the campaign trail, but because GOP voters might then see them as part of the dem 'lynch mob' who voted in the senate against Trump. While Biden gets to say "I wasn't even in the senate and played no part in this"

I would guess that anyone who buys the "Dem lynch mob" narrative would never vote Dem anyway?

***

Most Americans want witnesses in Trump impeachment trial - Reuters/Ipsos poll



The poll showed that Republicans and Democrats want to see people like Bolton and Pompeo tell the Senate what they know about the administration’s policies in Ukraine.

About 72% agreed that the trial “should allow witnesses with firsthand knowledge of the impeachment charges to testify,” including 84% of Democrats and 69% of Republicans. And 70% of the public, including 80% of Democrats and 73% of Republicans, said senators should “act as impartial jurors” during the trial.


There must be something pretty damning to hide if they're still doing it in spite of even Republican 69% majority wanting otherwise, right?

Does anyone know if 45's administration can get in trouble for destroying recorded evidence before leaving office (regardless of when that happens)? Like the actual full transcript of the "perfect call"? I keep thinking about how it'll have to see light eventually (the whole 'history will tell' chestnut), unless they can get away with destroying it before they leave.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I would guess that anyone who buys the "Dem lynch mob" narrative would never vote Dem anyway?

You might be surprised. Lots of independent voters won't rule out either party but they do tend to have a negative view of congressional dems and republicans. Bernie tends to be more admired by independents and a decent number of republicans I've met. Being seen as part of a political witch hunt might hurt his standing with some of those independents and GOP voters who might have considered voting for him in the general. I imagine even some never trumpers are going to be turned off by the impeachment process, regardless of what the facts are and who did what, because they're idiots, and they might hold their nose and vote for Trump in the primary. The dems have to be careful they don't turn Trump into a martyr. This could backfire on them badly.
 

Z Buck McFate

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You might be surprised. Lots of independent voters won't rule out either party but they do tend to have a negative view of congressional dems and republicans. Bernie tends to be more admired by independents and a decent number of republicans I've met. Being seen as part of a political witch hunt might hurt his standing with some of those independents and GOP voters who might have considered voting for him in the general. I imagine even some never trumpers are going to be turned off by the impeachment process, regardless of what the facts are and who did what, because they're idiots, and they might hold their nose and vote for Trump in the primary. The dems have to be careful they don't turn Trump into a martyr. This could backfire on them badly.

This is kind of surprising.

The frustrating thing about not turning Trump into a martyr though is that he's quite adept at turning himself into martyr any time he receives negative feedback, regardless of how merited that negative feedback is. In that sense, the only way for Dems to *not* turn him into a martyr is to let him get away with whatever he wants. And it gets to a point where not calling him out - just because he'll only use it to be a martyr - causes more underlying, longer-lasting backfire (because precedents are being set, false narratives get enabled) than the immediate backfire of his martyrdom.

(It isn't a null point you're making, there are different degrees of calling him on stuff and it's definitely worthwhile to 'pick and choose battles' - but I mean, I just also want to point out that Dems held back on impeachment as long as they reasonably could. There was enough in the Mueller Report. Waiting too long to avoid the martyrdom backfire has, in a sense, already enabled him by lending a modicum of credence to the "witch hunt" bullshit.)

(I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just kinda adding thoughts to the pile).

eta: Just as an example of what I mean by "lending a modicum of credence" to his bullshit, I'm guessing most of his base believe that he absolutely would have been impeached after the Mueller Report if there were any impeachable offenses therein, because there's 'no way the bloodthirsty haters would have let that opportunity pass' if there were impeachable offenses. Ergo, not picking that battle enabled the "witch hunt" narrative. Or the way that ultimately the only impeachment articles that made the cut were those things that were irrefutably proven - and as such, that served as 'proof' that the more serious offenses (e.g. bribery, extortion) were absolutely dreamed up and untrue - which again, isn't the case.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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This is kind of surprising.

The frustrating thing about not turning Trump into a martyr though is that he's quite adept at turning himself into martyr any time he receives negative feedback, regardless of how merited that negative feedback is. In that sense, the only way for Dems to *not* turn him into a martyr is to let him get away with whatever he wants. And it gets to a point where not calling him out - just because he'll only use it to be a martyr - causes more underlying, longer-lasting backfire (because precedents are being set, false narratives get enabled) than the immediate backfire of his martyrdom.

(It isn't a null point you're making, there are different degrees of calling him on stuff and it's definitely worthwhile to 'pick and choose battles' - but I mean, I just also want to point out that Dems held back on impeachment as long as they reasonably could. There was enough in the Mueller Report. Waiting too long to avoid the martyrdom backfire has, in a sense, already enabled him by lending a modicum of credence to the "witch hunt" bullshit.)

(I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just kinda adding thoughts to the pile).

Honestly, you want to know what I think? I think if they really want to get rid of him, they suicide him in the most embarrassing way possible. I'm talking stuff that would make David Carradine's death look tame in comparison. Personally, I'd have advised the dems to hold off until after the 2020 elections. If he lost, there'd be no need to impeach, if he won, it wouldn't be as easy to spin it as an election year publicity stunt.
 

Virtual ghost

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Is that what you call it. ;)



As far as my understanding of English goes the trial ends with the verdict. Although I see at what you actually aim. :)



You might be surprised. Lots of independent voters won't rule out either party but they do tend to have a negative view of congressional dems and republicans. Bernie tends to be more admired by independents and a decent number of republicans I've met. Being seen as part of a political witch hunt might hurt his standing with some of those independents and GOP voters who might have considered voting for him in the general. I imagine even some never trumpers are going to be turned off by the impeachment process, regardless of what the facts are and who did what, because they're idiots, and they might hold their nose and vote for Trump in the primary. The dems have to be careful they don't turn Trump into a martyr. This could backfire on them badly.



This is actually number one reason why I am not too pleased with all this. Half of GOP wouldn't vote for throwing him out of the office but this could indeed make him a martyr, especially if we count the narrative over the last few years. The guy simply feeds on drama and the more you rise tensions you are just creating the landscape where he thrives. The guy just knows how to use the political moment in his favor, that is the credit I will give him. While on the other hand if this turns into another saga you will basically get another 2016 plus impeachment, what is simply too much drama however you turn it.



But to be open I am biased in logic. In my country the whole Ukraine thing isn't really a scandal. In small countries it is normal that politicians have connections everywhere, from other countries to international institutions (which may even be fundamentally about fighting corruption and crime globally). Therefore through advances in this area small countries hope to become better place for genuine investments, living, vacations or whatever. So if you can roast some local strongman for genuine scam/corruption with outside help or info ... go ahead. The public would probably say you are the person that actually has the desire to do something (for a change). However I am willing to bet that most of president's supporters are somewhere on this level, they simply want to see "the witch" burn. Therefore the only real question is how many people are ready to jump on this train. What constitution says doesn't really matter if pulse of the nation says otherwise.
 

Jaguar

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As far as my understanding of English goes the trial ends with the verdict. Although I see at what you actually aim. :)

The whole process is pure garbage. I have a need for a shower to wash off the slime after listening to the so-called trial. ;)
 

Virtual ghost

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The whole process is pure garbage. I have a need for a shower to wash off the slime after listening to the so-called trial. ;)


Ok, that also makes sense. I don't have the time for watching this and neither I am really interested.
 

Virtual ghost

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Not interested in the impeachment trial in an impeachment thread. That's interesting. lol.



Not at all. I meant that more like: watching it on TV and going after all the details. To rephrase the saying "I live too far for this shit". :D
 

Yuurei

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Honestly, you want to know what I think? I think if they really want to get rid of him, they suicide him in the most embarrassing way possible. I'm talking stuff that would make David Carradine's death look tame in comparison. Personally, I'd have advised the dems to hold off until after the 2020 elections. If he lost, there'd be no need to impeach, if he won, it wouldn't be as easy to spin it as an election year publicity stunt.

That sounds great but you can’t embarrass a man who has no shame. Hell, we’ve been making fun of his Russian pee-parties since he became President and it’s has zero effect on him or his supporters. T this point he could be caught-literally-with his pants d own at a damned State of the Union and his supporters would probably laud it as some brilliant statement in against oppressing masculinity or sone dumb shit like that.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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That sounds great but you can’t embarrass a man who has no shame. Hell, we’ve been making fun of his Russian pee-parties since he became President and it’s has zero effect on him or his supporters. T this point he could be caught-literally-with his pants d own at a damned State of the Union and his supporters would probably laud it as some brilliant statement in against oppressing masculinity or sone dumb shit like that.

Dudette, you gotta go super embarrassing. Like, have his body found auto-erotically asphyxiated, and holding a pinup of Rosie O'Donnell, since that would really piss off Trump. Surround him with assloads of gay porn magazines. Etc. Have the TV in his room set up so it looks like he was watching CNN the whole time, since he makes a point of trashing that network. And a picture of Ann Coulter's dick taped to the wall. And a gold plated dildo sticking out of his ass
 
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