Is white nationalism necessarily racist?

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'm content with being comfortable with myself. I find pride to be an uncomfortable feeling.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Extreme individualism - no thought for the larger group - is not something I see as a positive. It's also not lacking, socially we have been all about the individual since the end of WWII. It might do the US a bit of good to look more inward and consider the lives of the people in this country as a whole. But the people in this country would need to work towards the good of the country - that will be an almost impossible sell.

Depends on the type of collectivism. I don't think white nationalism will accomplish anything for instance as its a exclusive and dividing kind of collectivism but I don't see national collectivism as bad and it can even lead to a healthy and strong nation as I think a strong sense of national identity is a good thing.

 

[ceecee]

Depends on the type of collectivism. I don't think white nationalism will accomplish anything for instance as its a exclusive and dividing kind of collectivism but I don't see national collectivism as bad and it can even lead to a healthy and strong nation as I think a strong sense of national identity is a good thing.

I never mentioned collectivism, you did. I don't agree with the concept of prioritization of the group over the self. I want people to consider the well being of the country and everyone in it while maintaining their individualism. It's very possible in a participatory democracy.

Nationalism is generally bad regardless of the type. Even in places like Scotland or N. Ireland which I understand entirely and why.

 

[Lark]

Depends on the type of collectivism. I don't think white nationalism will accomplish anything for instance as its a exclusive and dividing kind of collectivism but I don't see national collectivism as bad and it can even lead to a healthy and strong nation as I think a strong sense of national identity is a good thing.

I think that's just the classical sort of patriotism.

Orwell writes about the difference between patriotism as he understood it and nationalism in Lion and The Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius and Notes on Nationalism. Either of them is worth reading. They're both very short.

 

[anticlimatic]

Well it has the word white in it...so obviously?

Whites have plenty of cool culture with other names, so they shouldn't feel left out as a race based group. Americanna is my bread and butter.

 

[Lark]

I never mentioned collectivism, you did. I don't agree with the concept of prioritization of the group over the self. I want people to consider the well being of the country and everyone in it while maintaining their individualism. It's very possible in a participatory democracy.

Nationalism is generally bad regardless of the type. Even in places like Scotland or N. Ireland which I understand entirely and why.

I think internationalism has everything to recommend it, nationalism nothing, Orwell's idea of a patriotism as honouring distinctiveness within an internationalist order or context is a nice idea.

I'm generally supportive of whatever's demonstrably lawful good.

 

[Virtual ghost]

To be honest the only nationalism I have even known form first hand was basically a white one. Since I am living in a dream of every white nationalist and evidently the whitest part of the world at this point.

Here multiculturalism typical of colonial countries doesn't have any tradition or background as well as racism that comes out of it. Therefore being loyal to your culture would mean that you are kinda racist by definition. While on the other hand that might be too harsh verdict. Especially since many don't want multiculturalism so that racism doesn't actively gets developed here and that is a form of preventive strike. I can even see complete braking of EU into two parts just on this issue.


For me this is very murky subject.

 

[Lark]

Good alternative title for the thread would be:

"Can you fight fire with gasoline?", "Does Petrol make a good fire retardant?"

I'm familiar with a lot of these clever tactics gleaned from things like motivational interviewing and person centred counselling, straight up manipulation, create ambivalence about an individual's received or conventional wisdom in order that they may be more receptive to a different way of thinking but I wonder how many other people are aware of it?

Anyway, this thread is a good example of it if you were looking for one.

 

[The Cat]

I hope you'll elaborate more...

 

[Lark]

To be honest the only nationalism I have even known form first hand was basically a white one. Since I am living in a dream of every white nationalist and evidently the whitest part of the world at this point.

Here multiculturalism typical of colonial countries doesn't have any tradition or background as well as racism that comes out of it. Therefore being loyal to your culture would mean that you are kinda racist by definition. While on the other hand that might be too harsh verdict. Especially since many don't want multiculturalism so that racism doesn't actively gets developed here and that is a form of preventive strike. I can even see complete braking of EU into two parts just on this issue.


For me this is very murky subject.

It is murky, although I'd say that even most apparent mono-culture, mono-ethnic state, society, neighbourhood or household even (yes, cultures do operate on that level) is likely to possess more variety, diversity and difference than is usually acknowledged.

The reason is that there's generally some "other" which is considered different, some societies or scenes have this almost down to a fine art, for a long time I've been sure that the great (its really great actually) differences between more diversified evangelical christian groups in the US has been managed by treating RCs, Jews, Muslims etc. as the really "divergent" or unacceptable. That's an over simplification as I know there's arguments that there's not doctrinal or theological difference between evangelists so much as maybe life style or methodical difference but you get the idea.

There's also the idea about whether or not whiteness is well defined at all either, people in Scotland and Ireland are among the whitest people I've ever seen, I knew Scots women who were whiter than anything I've ever seen and I'm a pretty pale Irish man, however, its not the right sort of whiteness for a lot of people who have ideological or devotional attachment to the idea of "whiteness". I'm sure you could ask white racists in the US if croatians are white and you'd not get the same answer from all of them. A lot of white racists in the US I've seen in news footage look like they are of mixed race origins.

Personally, I dont think that true mono-cultures or mono-ethnicity exists, as a consequence I dont think its any basis for building up an ideology. Even if it where, which, like I say its not, I wouldnt see it as a idea that could compete with others. Its appeal is primarily to adolescents, working through adolescent stuff, and a lot of similar people of other age groups or demography.

One of the craziest things about contemporary political white racism is it draws a lot of its trappings from what was German nationalism, and have no mistake about that being exclusively German nationalism, no matter how much weirdos have mixed it up with indo-european caste thinking since, or bizzare kinds of racist "internationalism" or ironically, a lot, borrowed from their apparent principle adversary Jewish ethno-nationalism. Like a hell of a lot of these racist groups fight one another as much as their supposed opponents and its not for no reason, from its origin that's what it was about and what it returns to, like a dog returning to its own vomit.

Anyway, I keep meaning not to post anything more in threads like these, all they do is give racism more and more of the oxygen of attention they crave.

- - - Updated - - -

I hope you'll elaborate more...

I saw what you did there.

 

[The Cat]

It is murky, although I'd say that even most apparent mono-culture, mono-ethnic state, society, neighbourhood or household even (yes, cultures do operate on that level) is likely to possess more variety, diversity and difference than is usually acknowledged.

The reason is that there's generally some "other" which is considered different, some societies or scenes have this almost down to a fine art, for a long time I've been sure that the great (its really great actually) differences between more diversified evangelical christian groups in the US has been managed by treating RCs, Jews, Muslims etc. as the really "divergent" or unacceptable. That's an over simplification as I know there's arguments that there's not doctrinal or theological difference between evangelists so much as maybe life style or methodical difference but you get the idea.

There's also the idea about whether or not whiteness is well defined at all either, people in Scotland and Ireland are among the whitest people I've ever seen, I knew Scots women who were whiter than anything I've ever seen and I'm a pretty pale Irish man, however, its not the right sort of whiteness for a lot of people who have ideological or devotional attachment to the idea of "whiteness". I'm sure you could ask white racists in the US if croatians are white and you'd not get the same answer from all of them. A lot of white racists in the US I've seen in news footage look like they are of mixed race origins.

Personally, I dont think that true mono-cultures or mono-ethnicity exists, as a consequence I dont think its any basis for building up an ideology. Even if it where, which, like I say its not, I wouldnt see it as a idea that could compete with others. Its appeal is primarily to adolescents, working through adolescent stuff, and a lot of similar people of other age groups or demography.

One of the craziest things about contemporary political white racism is it draws a lot of its trappings from what was German nationalism, and have no mistake about that being exclusively German nationalism, no matter how much weirdos have mixed it up with indo-european caste thinking since, or bizzare kinds of racist "internationalism" or ironically, a lot, borrowed from their apparent principle adversary Jewish ethno-nationalism. Like a hell of a lot of these racist groups fight one another as much as their supposed opponents and its not for no reason, from its origin that's what it was about and what it returns to, like a dog returning to its own vomit.

Anyway, I keep meaning not to post anything more in threads like these, all they do is give racism more and more of the oxygen of attention they crave.

- - - Updated - - -



I saw what you did there.

Are you certain? It doesnt look like you did. But I'm curious what you did manage to take away from it.

 

[Lark]

Are you certain? It doesnt look like you did. But I'm curious what you did manage to take away from it.

What you said is part of the person centred/motivational interviewing script for engaging someone in conversation/building rapport as a pretext or precondition to influence.

May have been a coincidence, I thought you were doing it for a laugh, in line with what'd come up in the thread already. Anyway. Its not important.

 

[The Cat]

It was mostly, just hoping to understand your point of view better. I can see how that might look underhanded and manipulative though? After all. The important thing is that we're all right, understanding is such an overrated fad these days. But La. Such is life I suppose.

 

[EcK]

Good alternative title for the thread would be:

"Can you fight fire with gasoline?", "Does Petrol make a good fire retardant?"

I'm familiar with a lot of these clever tactics gleaned from things like motivational interviewing and person centred counselling, straight up manipulation, create ambivalence about an individual's received or conventional wisdom in order that they may be more receptive to a different way of thinking but I wonder how many other people are aware of it?

Anyway, this thread is a good example of it if you were looking for one.

I think you're a tad paranoid and I don't appreciate the implication that I somehow had nefarious goals in starting this thread.
Also you're far too smug about your supposed ability to guess people's intentions. As you are 100% wrong about my EEeeeEevil plans starting the thread. It would be fair to assume it is the same for other insights you've shared on other posters' intention.

Has it occurred to you, atop that high tower of yours, that maybe people like to discuss things and that it may not be part of some EEEeeEEEEEeeeeEEvil scheme involving hand rubbing and james bond villainy?? Additionally, it is sheer idiocy to just take 'accepted wisdom' as unquestionable truth - as everything that is an accepted truth has at some time or another been considered wrong headed. To name only one example: literally everything we know about the universe today would have been nonsense to a 'learned man' a 100 years ago.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think you're a tad paranoid and I don't appreciate the implication that I somehow had nefarious goals in starting this thread.
Also you're far too smug about your supposed ability to guess people's intentions. As you are 100% wrong about my EEeeeEevil plans starting the thread. It would be fair to assume it is the same for other insights you've shared on other posters' intention.

Has it occurred to you, atop that high tower of yours, that maybe people like to discuss things and that it may not be part of some EEEeeEEEEEeeeeEEvil scheme involving hand rubbing and james bond villainy?? Additionally, it is sheer idiocy to just take 'accepted wisdom' as unquestionable truth - as everything that is an accepted truth has at some time or another been considered wrong headed. To name only one example: literally everything we know about the universe today would have been nonsense to a 'learned man' a 100 years ago.

By the standards he's set, I could easily accuse him of his own nefarious intentions, based on the multiple lengthy posts he's made on the topic, both here and in the past.

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION], who do you think you're fooling? I always knew you were a nazi at heart.



I see you

 

[sLiPpY]

"The purpose of Liberalism is Anti-diversity; the purpose of Conservatism is to preserve Liberalism."

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Has it occurred to you, atop that high tower of yours, that maybe people like to discuss things and that it may not be part of some EEEeeEEEEEeeeeEEvil scheme involving hand rubbing and james bond villainy??.

Pardon me, but what was your purpose in starting this thread? I asked you earlier what your own opinions on the topic were, and I can't remember you ever providing them in this thread. If I'm correct about that (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; I may have skipped over something), it does seem suspicious.

I'm not saying Lark doesn't sometimes misread the intentions of others, but to me, this thread did look a lot like shit-stirring, or at least edge-lord posturing. I wouldn't go so far as to call it part of some master-plan, though.

 

[Lark]

"The purpose of Liberalism is Anti-diversity; the purpose of Conservatism is to preserve Liberalism."

A look who it is. Right on cue almost.

- - - Updated - - -

Pardon me, but what was your purpose in starting this thread? I asked you earlier what your own opinions on the topic were, and I can't remember you ever providing them in this thread. If I'm correct about that (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; I may have skipped over something), it does seem suspicious.

I'm not saying Lark doesn't sometimes misread the intentions of others, but to me, this thread did look a lot like shit-stirring, or at least edge-lord posturing. I wouldn't go so far as to call it part of some master-plan, though.

What do you mean? I can see the muthafuckin' Matrix y'all

 

[Lark]

By the standards he's set, I could easily accuse him of his own nefarious intentions, based on the multiple lengthy posts he's made on the topic, both here and in the past.

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION], who do you think you're fooling? I always knew you were a nazi at heart.



I see you

A lot of online Nazis have the same sorts of fantasies about turning people to their cause, particularly their opposition, that the soap box bible thumping evangelists offline appear to manifest.

I'm not interested in that, its about as hackneyed and tired at this point as suggesting I'm gay because I'm the last person alive willing to be critical of the LGBT's project creep.

 

[Lark]

I think you're a tad paranoid and I don't appreciate the implication that I somehow had nefarious goals in starting this thread.
Also you're far too smug about your supposed ability to guess people's intentions. As you are 100% wrong about my EEeeeEevil plans starting the thread. It would be fair to assume it is the same for other insights you've shared on other posters' intention.

Has it occurred to you, atop that high tower of yours, that maybe people like to discuss things and that it may not be part of some EEEeeEEEEEeeeeEEvil scheme involving hand rubbing and james bond villainy?? Additionally, it is sheer idiocy to just take 'accepted wisdom' as unquestionable truth - as everything that is an accepted truth has at some time or another been considered wrong headed. To name only one example: literally everything we know about the universe today would have been nonsense to a 'learned man' a 100 years ago.

Do tell.

Paranoia might be stressful, ignorance is fatal though.

I dont think any of the KKK revivals that are being pushed hard online by a right wing that's shit out of ideas are equivocal or comparable to some sort of truth telling enlightenment struggle, those sorts of silly arguments are kids stuff when it comes to manipulation 101, as rhetorical tools, if it where all simply good clean fun, they're lame too.

So far as it being all just some sort of trolling or edge lord gaming, people do a lot of dumb shit imagining its all just pranking of some sort, maybe it is, its no less dangerous for being thought about that way. Its all about as smart as the cut price fireworks sold out of the car boot with definitely no returns policy.