The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There are more liberals than conservatives in this country. I only hear grievances about "the elite" here and there, rarely from people I actually know, but I assume it's intended to mean all liberals? Am I wrong? It seems like I hear the term interchangeably with Democrats/liberals. (I mean honestly, I didn't pay attention to the term specifically before 2016, so I don't know. So maybe I should be asking "Who the fuck is 'the elite'"? If it does include even the Starbuck baristas who happen to be liberal, then I'd assume it means something interchangeable with 'liberal'.)

I think what is meant by the elite depends on who you talk to. Some people think it means billionaires with a lot of money and influence (which would be my definition). Others think it's just think it's folks who don't live on a beet farm or like dijon mustard, avocado, and non-watery beer. I suppose you can make your own determination about which definition is more meaningful.

 

[ceecee]

Ha! I edited my post (to be more specific) before I saw this and also mentioned Devos as an example of what I consider "elite" according to how google defines it - except for the "liberal" part. The "liberal" part of google's definition doesn't make sense to me - which is why I'm posting the question here.

She's the worst. I saw a fact check article recently confirming she's the most disliked member of this administration. Politifact, I think.

eta: That article makes "the elite" sound more like a Koch Brothers thing than a liberal thing too. I mean, how and when did "the elite" begin to refer to liberals?

Maybe it's an attitude? Like a snobbish college professor kind of attitude, looking down at podunk yokels? Because I know educated people (amongst the bottom 90% of wealth) tend to be liberal, and it seems like conservatives are forever whining about a liberal bias in universities.

Well, when they elected Trump I was like - you dumb fucks - he IS the coastal elite you have been bitching about. But what I realized is that Trump embodies his voters idea (middle and lower class, working poor) of what a rich person is. Ostentatious. Tasteless. Loud. Crass. Fake. Most wealthy people (like Betsy DeVos and her family) do tons of philanthropy for two reasons. To shelter their money and be the only choice - hospitals, schools, entertainment venues, sports teams... and for them it's also tied to their Calvinist religion. But what they actually want is the US to be run like a private business and create things like Heritage Foundation, the Institute for Justice, and the American Enterprise Institute, to fund conservative candidates and wage war on everything they hate.

So my feeling on the "elites" hate that comes from Trump voters is for anyone liberal or anyone they view as liberal, even if they aren't. Because they think those people are more educated than them, make more money than them, look down at them and, most importantly, live in urban areas. This is the biggest one because it's impacts voting. It's why Trump surrogates talk about the rural vote having more meaning than the urban vote and why they will fight to the death to defend the electoral collage.

In the end conservatives will NEVER demonize Trump or other conservatives (1%, CEO's and business owners,) because those people are one of them. They know their numbers are small, they need money to back their war on liberalism and they consume media that reflects those "facts". It will always be liberals as the villain, no matter what because they have been told that's how to win their war. That's how they vote against their interest and that's how we'll have more of this shit.

 

[Maou]

I don't really see how being an "Elite" negates any good qualities they have. Many people in politics are millionaires, even Bernie Sanders. There is no mustache twirling villains at the top. They are real people, some are just more horrible than others sure. But that is humanity for you. I do not think they are all bad. Almost every president has been rich. So really, we are just voting for what "Elite" person we want. I would even say that most of "Politics" is just Elites squabbling over how to run the Plutocracy, and all of them know that getting people to vote for what they want is just a matter of money. But there are also Elites that actually want to help the country. Is it so outrageous to assume that some Elites like USA?

Then Trump came along, and stepped on all of their prides and threw a wrench into their plans of the other Elites, to run the country they way he wanted to, and to try to improve the situation. Most of the Plutocracy rose up to try to stop him, simply because of the audacity. Trump is akin to a new employee who shows up all the old employees with his hard work ethic, pisses them off because they can't be lazy anymore and forces them to have to do their job or the "boss" will notice. It was never a matter of policy. Trump just decided to get the job done, while everyone else was too lazy or intimidated to try. Trump also exposed a lot of their incompetence and how much they manipulate the public opinion. Elite or not, I do not think Trump is out for his own interest. Because he doesn't need to do that publicly. No Elite does. None of his supposed "bad" motivations match his actions. At least, from my perspective. I simply see a person trying to do his best, against the Plutocracy, misinformation, and political coup d' etat.

 

[ceecee]

I don't really see how being an "Elite" negates any good qualities they have. Many people in politics are millionaires, even Bernie Sanders. There is no mustache twirling villains at the top. They are real people, some are just more horrible than others sure. But that is humanity for you. I do not think they are all bad. Almost every president has been rich. So really, we are just voting for what "Elite" person we want. I would even say that most of "Politics" is just Elites squabbling over how to run the Plutocracy, and all of them know that getting people to vote for what they want is just a matter of money. But there are also Elites that actually want to help the country. Is it so outrageous to assume that some Elites like USA?

Then Trump came along, and stepped on all of their prides and threw a wrench into their plans of the other Elites, to run the country they way he wanted to, and to try to improve the situation. Most of the Plutocracy rose up to try to stop him, simply because of the audacity. Trump is akin to a new employee who shows up all the old employees with his hard work ethic, pisses them off because they can't be lazy anymore and forces them to have to do their job or the "boss" will notice. It was never a matter of policy. Trump just decided to get the job done, while everyone else was too lazy or intimidated to try. Trump also exposed a lot of their incompetence and how much they manipulate the public opinion. Elite or not, I do not think Trump is out for his own interest. Because he doesn't need to do that publicly. No Elite does. None of his supposed "bad" motivations match his actions. At least, from my perspective. I simply see a person trying to do his best, against the Plutocracy, misinformation, and political coup d' etat.

Thank you for proving my point almost exactly.

 

[anticlimatic]

Well, when they elected Trump I was like - you dumb fucks - he IS the coastal elite you have been bitching about. But what I realized is that Trump embodies his voters idea (middle and lower class, working poor) of what a rich person is. Ostentatious. Tasteless. Loud. Crass. Fake. Most wealthy people (like Betsy DeVos and her family) do tons of philanthropy for two reasons. To shelter their money and be the only choice - hospitals, schools, entertainment venues, sports teams... and for them it's also tied to their Calvinist religion. But what they actually want is the US to be run like a private business and create things like Heritage Foundation, the Institute for Justice, and the American Enterprise Institute, to fund conservative candidates and wage war on everything they hate. So my feeling on the "elites" hate that comes from Trump voters is for anyone liberal or anyone they view as liberal, even if they aren't. Because they think those people are more educated than them, make more money than them, look down at them and, most importantly, live in urban areas. This is the biggest one because it's impacts voting. It's why Trump surrogates talk about the rural vote having more meaning than the urban vote and why they will fight to the death to defend the electoral collage. In the end conservatives will NEVER demonize Trump or other conservatives (1%, CEO's and business owners,) because those people are one of them. They know their numbers are small, they need money to back their war on liberalism and they consume media that reflects those "facts". It will always be liberals as the villain, no matter what because they have been told that's how to win their war. That's how they vote against their interest and that's how we'll have more of this shit.

The more you talk about what you think conservatives are, and what you think their motivations are (which is a disturbing amount), the more it's painfully obvious you're just talking about yourself. Please get help, and/or a life.

 

[Maou]

Thank you for proving my point almost exactly.

And what is your point exactly? That all Trump voters hate Elites? Also, I do not hate actual Liberals, I hate people who claim they are liberal but are actually Democratic socialists. I am a real Liberal, that is slightly right leaning. Yet most of the people on this site are so far Left, that they think I am a Republican or Neo-con.

 

[ceecee]

The more you talk about what you think conservatives are, and what you think their motivations are (which is a disturbing amount), the more it's painfully obvious you're just talking about yourself. Please get help, and/or a life.

You do not talk to the men on this board the way you talk to me or other women. If you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore.

“I’m Tired of America Wasting Our Blood and Treasure”: The Strange Ascent of Betsy DeVos and Erik Prince | Vanity Fair

 

[Virtual ghost]

And what is your point exactly? That all Trump voters hate Elites? Also, I do not hate actual Liberals, I hate people who claim they are liberal but are actually Democratic socialists. I am a real Liberal, that is slightly right leaning. Yet most of the people on this site are so far Left, that they think I am a Republican or Neo-con.

Just saying:


You were never striking me as particularly conservative person but more like a liberal with right wing or capitalistic upbringing. I am from the culture where left-right generally talks only about social issues, while economy is a different pair of shoes. Although if you are going to wave a Trump banner in front of people they will presume you are Republican, since Trump is republican president.



However since I wasn't born in Capitalism unlike others here I dare to say that there are opinionated people here, but not that many "democratic socialists". Especially if we count only American posters. Only CeeCee and Julius are showing some clear tendencies in this direction and everyone else is mostly some version of a liberal. Plus democratic socialism is actually more of mild or perhaps medium left, far left is Communism (which simply doesn't exist in US).

 

[Z Buck McFate]

But what they actually want is the US to be run like a private business and create things like Heritage Foundation, the Institute for Justice, and the American Enterprise Institute, to fund conservative candidates and wage war on everything they hate.

Yeah. Power attained by democratic election can be voted out, but power attained using profuse wealth can't (ultimately it's less work to maintain, because they don't have to answer to anyone to keep the source of the imbalance of power - so long as they use that power to secure their financial advantage).

I don't listen to conservative media enough to really know what *they* mean by "elite", but yeah. When I do hear it I can't help but think it's part of some tactic to make the bottom 80% of the right vote against their own interests. (What better way is there for the actual bourgeoisie to make the proletariat vote against the other party than drilling in the notion that the other party is the bourgeoisie - that's only way I can make sense of it).

 

[Jaguar]

What the fuck is an elite? I am so over that goddamn word. And the logical have lost their logic. Bummer. See what discussing politics does to people?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't listen to conservative media enough to really know what *they* mean by "elite", but yeah. When I do hear it I can't help but think it's part of some tactic to make the bottom 80% of the right vote against their own interests. (What better way is there for the actual bourgeoisie to make the proletariat vote against the other party than drilling in the notion that the other party is the bourgeoisie - that's only way I can make sense of it).

I think that's pretty close to the mark.

 

[anticlimatic]

Power attained by democratic election can be voted out, but power attained using profuse wealth can't.

It's easy to elect different people, especially presidents, for their limited terms- but the programs they create while in office can be all but impossible to dislodge after they are 'voted out,' as a previous post I shared suggests. Businesses in the private sector, who aren't subsidized by the government, can be 'voted it' in a way by people not giving them money and taking it elsewhere. The idea that the government is more easily controlled by the people than business is incorrect.

What the fuck is an elite? I am so over that goddamn word. And the logical have lost their logic. Bummer. See what discussing politics does to people?

It doesn't have to. People can be polite and civil and keep their heads.

 

[Jaguar]

Calomaris, who has worked as a business consultant and restaurateur and taught marketing at the University of Maryland, said that he thought Trump was “a bright guy” but that “he was always lazy — he wouldn’t read a book. I never considered him stupid; I considered him opportunistic. . . . He cared about making money, and he knew that the most prestigious school was Wharton, and that worked with his opportunistic nature.”

Lazy and wouldn't read a book. I see nothing has changed.

It doesn't have to. People can be polite and civil and keep their heads.

I said logic, nothing was mentioned in my post about being civil or polite. But since you brought it up, some of your posts are anything but polite. Especially when you're talking to ceecee. Do you have an issue with women?

 

[Virtual ghost]

It's easy to elect different people, especially presidents, for their limited terms- but the programs they create while in office can be all but impossible to dislodge after they are 'voted out,' as a previous post I shared suggests. Businesses in the private sector, who aren't subsidized by the government, can be 'voted it' in a way by people not giving them money and taking it elsewhere. The idea that the government is more easily controlled by the people that business is incorrect.

However there are certain complications here in what you are saying which are perhaps the most visible in the form of marketing, PR ... and all that Jazz. Therefore since we live in the era where it is impossible to be an expert on everything this entire dynamic may not function properly, since there is simply too much info. Just truly understanding how your Cell phone works is the endeavour that takes at least a decade of focused study. What means that you will eventually just have to take someones word for it. So the problem perhaps isn't that much in controlling the government, us much "big business" and market got out of control. Which were both kinda traditional "safe harbor" for common people. What in the end altogether leaves them basically powerless and that resulted with "Make America great again".



On the other hand in this corner of the world we took extra effort to get out of Communism, while in the meantime USA moved basically it's entire manufacturing into totalitarian China. So many people here see what US did and say "Why on Earth their people didn't just block this mass outsourcing !?". What really is a hundred trillion dollar question ... why didn't they ?
A: Every system can be gamed if there is a real desire and skill for it.

 

[anticlimatic]

Lazy and wouldn't read a book. I see nothing has changed. I said logic, nothing was mentioned in my post about being civil or polite. But since you brought it up, some of your posts are anything but polite. Especially when you're talking to ceecee. Do you have an issue with women?

As an expert communicator, I've always learned to adapt the style of whoever I'm communicating with. Even though I dislike doing it, you can only get through to people who are determined to be rude with similar rudeness. It's what they prefer, not me.

 

[anticlimatic]

However there are certain complications here in what you are saying which are perhaps the most visible in the form of marketing, PR ... and all that Jazz. Therefore since we live in the era where it is impossible to be an expert on everything this entire dynamic may not function properly, since there is simply too much info. Just truly understanding how your Cell phone works is the endeavour that takes at least a decade of focused study. What means that you will eventually just have to take someones word for it. So the problem perhaps isn't that much in controlling the government, us much "big business" and market got out of control. Which were both kinda traditional "safe harbor" for common people. What in the end altogether leaves them basically powerless and that resulted with "Make America great again".



On the other hand in this corner of the world we took extra effort to get out of Communism, while in the meantime USA moved basically it's entire manufacturing into totalitarian China. So many people here see what US did and say "Why on Earth their people didn't just block this mass outsourcing !?". What really is a hundred trillion dollar question ... why didn't they ?
A: Every system can be gamed if there is a real desire and skill for it.

I don't disagree that there are complications in the way of fully actualizing the capitalist vision of what the people can control, the same way there are complications in the way of fully actualizing the vision of left wing people in the USA for the same. I just think its good to be aware that there is more than one way to skin a cat here, and maybe if people woke up to that we could actually get some of the cats we both want skinned accomplished- instead of wasting time on a noble crusade we just know is right, because it's the only logical path forward- when in fact there are others that could work too.

 

[Maou]

Just saying:


You were never striking me as particularly conservative person but more like a liberal with right wing or capitalistic upbringing. I am from the culture where left-right generally talks only about social issues, while economy is a different pair of shoes. Although if you are going to wave a Trump banner in front of people they will presume you are Republican, since Trump is republican president. .

However since I wasn't born in Capitalism unlike others here I dare to say that there are opinionated people here, but not that many "democratic socialists". Especially if we count only American posters. Only CeeCee and Julius are showing some clear tendencies in this direction and everyone else is mostly some version of a liberal. Plus democratic socialism is actually more of mild or perhaps medium left, far left is Communism (which simply doesn't exist in US).

I was actually raised by working class union democrats, and went to school and learned about politics in Oregon, and Washington. Both being very Blue. My step dad is Hispanic, and I grew up very poor. I was Libertarian for a long time. I just think economics are far more important than social issues, as its the foundation everything else is built on.

And yeah, people stereotype the fuck outta Trump supporters, and its funny

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't disagree that there are complications in the way of fully actualizing the capitalist vision of what the people can control, the same way there are complications in the way of fully actualizing the vision of left wing people in the USA for the same. I just think its good to be aware that there is more than one way to skin a cat here, and maybe if people woke up to that we could actually get some of the cats we both want skinned accomplished- instead of wasting time on a noble crusade we just know is right, because it's the only logical path forward- when in fact there are others that could work too.

Ok, I was simply putting that out there because this is no longer as simple as it used be. Technology really complicated things in this regard.



Regarding American left in general: they surely to some degree have a "presentation" problem. Winning over people by calling them names can be a "tricky" strategy.
Not to mention that many of them want to be seen as more radical then they are, simply because that is how they want to be seen. There are even debates out there on the internet about is Bernie BSing when he says he is "democratic socialist". Since with his label he just shot himself in the foot, especially since he actually advocates socio-democracy in practce. Which is much "milder" ideology that is probably acceptable to quite a number of working class people on both left and right in USA. Plus all of their points could have been more sophisticated so that they don't repeat the same few points over and over on TV. Therefore I can understand and picture the problem with dogmatic or shallow thinking here.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I was actually raised by working class union democrats, and went to school and learned about politics in Oregon, and Washington. Both being very Blue. My step dad is Hispanic, and I grew up very poor. I was Libertarian for a long time. I just think economics are far more important than social issues, as its the foundation everything else is built on.

And yeah, people stereotype the fuck outta Trump supporters, and its funny

Well, I was just scanning the situation with that post. You just sent a friends request to a person that in US would probably be label politically as "insert what you don't like'". Although I am swinging it in a more practical minded fashion than the ideological one. Therefore since I don't have anything in particular against your I accepted the request in good faith.

 

[Maou]

Well, I was just scanning the situation with that post. You just sent a friends request to a person that in US would probably be label politically as "insert what you don't like'". Although I am swinging it in a more practical minded fashion than the ideological one. Therefore since I don't have anything in particular against your I accepted the request in good faith.

I don't have anything against anyone here either. I would like to get to know a lot of you outside of politics. You gain a better understanding of people's perspectives that way. I don't really care what anyone's political beliefs are, but being able to show you can get along in all areas of life shows maturity and tolerance.

Also, I love your new avatar lol.