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  1. #691
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Why would someone pay double anticlimatic’s rate? I’d be more worried someone came along offering to do the digging for 40
    I'm going to guess his point is that there's always a bigger fish (and one that would charge twice as much would probably qualify as bigger fish) around, and since conservative Social Darwinism dictates that the smaller fish should crawl in a hole and die: shouldn't he be glad/relieved there are "sheeple"? (Since otherwise, he'd be the smaller fish and he'd get snuffed out).

    /Probably shouldn't answer for Nico, but did anyway.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?

  2. #692
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm going to guess his point is that there's always a bigger fish (and one that would charge twice as much would probably qualify as bigger fish) around, and since conservative Social Darwinism dictates that the smaller fish should crawl in a hole and die: shouldn't he be glad/relieved there are "sheeple"? (Since otherwise, he'd be the smaller fish and he'd get snuffed out).

    /Probably shouldn't answer for Nico, but did anyway.
    Typically bigger fish can afford to charge less and price out their competitors.

    I didn’t really take Nico literally, I just wanted to tease him about his economic analogies

  3. #693
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Libertarianism's flaw is that its proponents assume the best of intentions and pure ethics will always be at play in their desired system, whilst only seeming to notice the worst elements of corruption and tomfoolery occurring in the system they oppose. They disregard or fail to consider how corruption and selfishness tends to creep into any type of organized endeavor when they insist that free market enterprises would run things more ethically and efficiently than the government. Of course the same is true about socialism and its proponents ("bUt ThE sOvIeT uNiOn WaS nOt a TrUe ExPeRiMeNt In SoCiAlIsM cUz iT gOt tAkEn oVeR bY cOrRuPt iNdIvIdUaLs wHo aBuSeD tHeIr pOwEr!!!"), or any other system, for that matter.
    Well said. The thing that frustrates me - to the extent that it feels utterly pointless to even attempt dialogue with people who identify as libertarian anymore - is that there's an aggressive blindness to facts about how reality actually plays out. I think there's definitely valid criticism about government regulation, and I doubt we'll ever get to the STNG-like point where things run so smoothly that it can be taken for granted because all the kinks have been discovered and it's mostly been ironed out. But with libertarians, it's like there's such an abject fear and amplification of how government regulation can go wrong - without realizing they are blinded by this fear, seeing their own viewpoint as 'rational evaluation' - that they can't even 'go there' in dialogue. It's like talking to a flat-Earther.

    *insert picture of Janet Leigh screaming in Psycho poster, but it says "Socialism" instead of "Psycho"*

    I mean, I don't know how else to make sense of how they turn to this argument about how an absolutely free market will work itself out in the end, without being able to hear absolutely any argument about how that hasn't been how it's played out in reality. eta: Without regulation, wealth 'trickles' upwards and creates more income inequality. This has been proven practically as thoroughly as it's been proven that the Earth isn't flat. And yet...
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?
    Likes ceecee, cascadeco liked this post

  4. #694
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Typically bigger fish can afford to charge less and price out their competitors.
    I think there's point in here about seeing the same amount of work ("digging a hole") done by oneself as being worth twice as much when you're a bigger fish. Though yeah, because the "bigger fish" will have figured out how to make the money off of others' labor rather than their own, they will have found a way to charge less.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?

  5. #695
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Did someone shit in your Cheerios this morning or what?
    Is it that hard to tell when I'm having a good time?

  6. #696
    Super Moderator STIGMATA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I don't know stigmata so I don't have any judgments regarding his worth.
    @STIGMATA- homie that wasn't directed at you, no offense.
    No offense taken.
    The order of preference for your cognitive functions appears to be
    Ne > Ti > Te = Ni > Fi > Fe = Se > Si

  7. #697
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Well said. The thing that frustrates me - to the extent that it feels utterly pointless to even attempt dialogue with people who identify as libertarian anymore - is that there's an aggressive blindness to facts about how reality actually plays out. I think there's definitely valid criticism about government regulation, and I doubt we'll ever get to the STNG-like point where things run so smoothly that it can be taken for granted because all the kinks have been discovered and it's mostly been ironed out. But with libertarians, it's like there's such an abject fear and amplification of how government regulation can go wrong - without realizing they are blinded by this fear, seeing their own viewpoint as 'rational evaluation' - that they can't even 'go there' in dialogue. It's like talking to a flat-Earther.

    *insert picture of Janet Leigh screaming in Psycho poster, but it says "Socialism" instead of "Psycho"*

    I mean, I don't know how else to make sense of how they turn to this argument about how an absolutely free market will work itself out in the end, without being able to hear absolutely any argument about how that hasn't been how it's played out in reality. eta: Without regulation, wealth 'trickles' upwards and creates more income inequality. This has been proven practically as thoroughly as it's been proven that the Earth isn't flat. And yet...
    If I may...

    There are many many different kinds of regulators. Most of the people I work around in the building trades are libertarians- like 99 percent of them- the people that construct and maintain all of the infrastructure that everyone depends on and takes for granted- running water, electricity, roads, heat, air conditioning, etc. All that shit is constantly breaking down all the time due to the entropic nature of the universe, and keeping it running is a full-time war against the elements. This war is hard enough as it is, but every individual building trade is also beholden to a legally enforced branch of regulators and administrators- and although a certain degree of that kind of thing is important in keeping things safe- by and large they are just corrupt bureaucrats who only make money by screwing people over, and charge exorbitant fees and fines simply to justify their own existence. They are almost universally despised by the people that do the actual work, and serve as a kind of microcosm for how they feel overall about 'regulations' in larger systems beyond their understanding. That's how you get the libertarians you know.

  8. #698
    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STIGMATA
    How can you suggest wages have increased when we have the greatest income disparity since the depression? Unemployment may be trending downward but people are having to work longer hours for less and less spending power -- you have an increasing amount of households which are working poor.
    Wages have increased; this is empirical evidence gathered by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. You call up a couple hundred thousand people monthly, ask them what they make, and put it in an excel file and chart it. The trendline slopes upward.

    Income disparity is a good thing because it means there is abundant opportunity; when there is more opportunity, you'll see greater income disparity. Cavemen had no income disparity. Is that a good thing? Of course not. It means that cavemen had no opportunity to move ahead. The one stat that's truly important is the median household income; that's gone up by over $2000/year.

    Unemployment may be trending downward but people are having to work longer hours for less and less spending power -- you have an increasing amount of households which are working poor.
    It's not true that people are working longer hours for less; they're working longer hours because they were jobless before and now they aren't. The greatest economic stimulus package is a job. Under Obama, we saw the number of people on food stamps double; under Trump, we've seen 4 million fewer people on food stamps. The economy is sizzling right now.
    Bob Cratchit, you're Fired!!

  9. #699
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    If I may...

    There are many many different kinds of regulators. Most of the people I work around in the building trades are libertarians- like 99 percent of them- the people that construct and maintain all of the infrastructure that everyone depends on and takes for granted- running water, electricity, roads, heat, air conditioning, etc. All that shit is constantly breaking down all the time due to the entropic nature of the universe, and keeping it running is a full-time war against the elements. This war is hard enough as it is, but every individual building trade is also beholden to a legally enforced branch of regulators and administrators- and although a certain degree of that kind of thing is important in keeping things safe- by and large they are just corrupt bureaucrats who only make money by screwing people over, and charge exorbitant fees and fines simply to justify their own existence. They are almost universally despised by the people that do the actual work, and serve as a kind of microcosm for how they feel overall about 'regulations' in larger systems beyond their understanding. That's how you get the libertarians you know.
    This is actually helpful. Thank you.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #700
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    🤷 If you cant hack it in this world, you can't hack it. Personally I prefer a society that rewards people with integrity ambition and intelligence. The great mass of useless sheeple that don't measure up can crawl in a hole and die for all I care- in fact I'll even dig it for them (80 dollars an hour, one hour minimum).



    Yes, but all these sheeple are direct consequence of the market and someones business.


    Who destroyed public education to the point that it is useless ? Market loving people.
    Who is doing 24/7 reality TV ? Market.
    Who completely filled the environment and culture with Ads ? Market.
    Who made laws that everything should result with financial profit of private consultants, even if it is just based on useless regulation. Market people.
    Who introduced social networks and all other ADHD/Narcissism "standards". Market.



    You may not recognize it but you are living in your own phantasy, since this is where it leads to.
    The 1% are fundamentally nothing more than people who were rewarded for their ambition and intelligence.

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