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2020 Democratic Party primary thread

Doctor Cringelord

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When you're ready to get back on topic, let me know.

Never went off the topic of the 2020 democratic party primary. That is the title of the thread.

There's a wealth of low hanging fruit for you in the graveyard in the form of mole threads if you want to play your usual games.
 

Jaguar

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A lot of your "point making" involves omitting others' points to reframe their posts or arguments as looking weaker than they are.

You weren't even making any argument. But if you want to pretend your critique of the debate is an "argument," knock yourself out.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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You weren't even making any argument. But if you want to pretend your critique of the debate is an "argument," knock yourself out.

That's #3 today.

I didn't say they were arguments. I was referring to a general pattern you exhibit. Note the words "others" and "or" in relation to the words "posts" and "arguments" in the post you just quoted.
 

Jaguar

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Two old guys were waving their hands. That wasn't an argument, it was an observable fact if you watched the debate last night.

Here's one of them:



And I thoroughly enjoyed it, as did the audience. ;)
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Two old guys were waving their hands. That wasn't an argument, it was an observable fact if you watched the debate last night.

Here's one of them:



And I thoroughly enjoyed it, as did the audience. ;)

As usual, you do a good job of repeating obvious, known things.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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And the game where you lie to people's faces about posts they never even made. You do that a lot, and it better stop.

it's more like you're intentionally vague about things and refuse to clarify so you can maintain plausible deniability.
 

Jaguar

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it's more like you're intentionally vague about things and refuse to clarify so you can maintain plausible deniability.

And the game where you lie to people's faces about posts they never even made. You do that a lot, and it better stop. I have no interest in Bloomberg, get it through your head.
 

highlander

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I'm not surprised to hear your critical of unions. Do you know why teachers by and large are ineffectual in the US? Not because they suck, but because they are wildly underpaid, particularly for how hard the work is. The school systems are underfunded and misfunded. Why? Because the right wing has been chipping away at it for decades, and the moderates think schools can be managed and checked through standardized testing and no-tolerance type mentalities within school administrations. Schools should not, and cannot be treated like a business. If schools were funded more, teachers paid more, proper benefits given, students were invested in more, and infrastructure funded more it would be a great deal better. Private schools are not the answer, and the reason the right pushes for privatization so much is because it allows local areas to run them as they want. It sounds nice on paper, but schools cannot work without broad oversight. As I'm sure you're aware, Finland has one of the best school systems in the world, and that is what everyone should be following to mirror. Asia is not a good model to follow because it places students under extreme stress and pressure in a almost darwinian manner with too much of a reliance on singular tests and standardization.

Really though, one of the first things that needs to be done is teachers salary needs to be significantly higher across the board. That will allow teachers to fund their classrooms better, be better rested, and be compensated for how difficult and extremely important the job is. The budget space for this can 100% be found whether or not you think it can or not.

Why is retirement at 55 bad? Seriously? Why do people need to work for such a large portion of their lives? We have one life, and why on earth does it have to be spent working for so damn long? Life should be something to be enjoyed, and not everyone finds joy in work. Sometimes people want to do something else. Just because the retirement age is set to 55 doesn't mean everyone will want to leave at that moment (and if they do then then great for them). The puritan rooted mindset of working yourself to the bone as proof of grit and maturity is bullshit.

The simple fact is that the reason many states are in such bad financial shape is the generous early pensions they provide to government workers. Back in the 1970s, pension accounting became a hot topic. Companies had underfunded pension liabilities, stockholders got concerned, so they passed a bunch of changes through the Financial Accounting Standards Board to require accurate and fair reporting of pension liabilities. All public companies need to use Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and are thus required to report these pensions fairly. Guess what though. Government doesn't have to adhere to those rules. So you have a lot of State and local government politicians with short term interests, with nobody wanting to communicate the bad news, continuing to dig a deeper and deeper hole with these obligations that are unfunded. I have a pension at my company. Some of it is funded and some of it is not. I know exactly how much falls into what category. I know how much is at risk. Teachers in my state don't. They think it's all due to them and it's guaranteed. It's why my state is bankrupt. It's why we have the highest combined taxes of any state in the US. The average household owes $90,000 on these pensions. Think about that and let it sink in. That's the average taking all the people who won't be able to pay anywhere near that much money into the system. If you're going to increase salaries or provide better pension benefits, you have to find a place for the money to come from and bankrupt states aren't a good place to look. Why stop with the generous pensions? It's because we can't afford it. It's why big corporations, though pressured by unions for many years to keep increasing these benefits, had to cut back on them. They couldn't afford them either. It was a matter of survival. If you look at this article, which is a little old, it provides further perspective on pay.

Low Teacher Pay And High Teacher Pay Are Both Myths


Adjunct positions are decreasing in stability, pay, and respect, while they increase in demand which is lowering the quality of student education. You seem to broadly think competition is a good thing- it's not.

You think? There is another way to look at it. It's an opportunity for people who have solid work experience to give students the benefit of their considerable practical experience in the workplace. They aren't doing it for the money because it's peanuts ($3,000 - $4,000 per class?). It's because they want to give back. I've had adjunct faculty in the past and they were for the most part excellent.

This is just flat out wrong, although I can understand why you think this (and why most people would). NASA was, and continues to be one of the greatest things this country has ever created, and is essential to space and physics research, now more than ever really.

I got that from someone who worked at NASA for 30 years. He was a physicist who ended up quitting because he hated his pencil pusher procurement job so much. He wouldn't agree with you that the opportunities were exciting. He would say all the exciting work is being farmed out to contractors.

Did you know that many of the countries that consistently have stellar education are also unionized/have collective bargaining agreements? That the teachers were cream of the crop students and given an education equal to the task of educating the nations children? I'm always curious if people using this argument have ever been to and seen countries that provide education far superior to the US. I've seen children and classrooms in Finland, the ethnic homogeneity argument is also bullshit, by the way. It seems the knee jerk reaction is to introduce marketplace competition into public schools - obviously not an answer. If you only measure statistics, you miss the rest of the picture. Perhaps they prepare kids to learn, not just how to take a standardized test, better than the US.

I'm sure you will have many arguments to throw at me on this topic. All I can tell you is what we have here is not working and more of the same - I got mine, fuck you - attitude so prevalent in this country is not the answer. It has nothing to do with throwing money at it, that doesn't work because politicians see to it that public schools don't see it. It's the collective uncaring about the education of this country - from I don't have kids I don't want to pay taxes for public schools to - backing austerity and for profit charter schools.

I agree pouring more money in isn't an answer. Look to Chicago for the results of that. I'm also not in support of the status quo I actually believe this issue to be pretty important. As an example, what do we do to prepare people to work in the trades? Nothing. Why should grade school and high school do nothing to educate people on skills they need for a job? Why does everyone have to go to college to get a good one? It's one of the biggest failings in our current system.

I'm not sure of this report accurately reflects what people should do, but it's one possibility.

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mc...roved_school_systems_keep_getting_better.ashx

Bloomberg initiated a lot of changes in NYC. It sounds like some of the things worked and others didn't.

A Quick Study on Mike Bloomberg’s Education Record as Mayor


By the way, one of the reasons I advocate Bloomberg is what he values and his policies seem to align with mine. Education is an important priority to me as is gun control. These are two examples of things he has been very active in.

I don't think Bernie cares much about gun control - at least that's what his voting history in the senate demonstrates.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Ok fine. But then they say that Bloomberg is different because he has a pure heart. What would you say then?

Pure heart????? Mr. Lets Ban The Big Gulp and Send the Cops on Occupy Wall Street?????

I suspect Bloomberg is everything that Trump haters accuse Trump of being, just without the entertainment value. Bloomberg would love to rule over a country like China. Bloomberg has Xi envy.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Pure heart????? Mr. Lets Ban The Big Gulp and Send the Cops on Occupy Wall Street?????

I suspect Bloomberg is everything that Trump haters accuse Trump of being, just without the entertainment value. Bloomberg would love to rule over a country like China. Bloomberg has Xi envy.

I think they're the same, one just looks more respectable. Why do you think Trump is not like the billionaires you mentioned? Everything I've seen suggests that he's exactly like that.
 

ceecee

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The simple fact is that the reason many states are in such bad financial shape is the generous early pensions they provide to government workers. Back in the 1970s, pension accounting became a hot topic. Companies had underfunded pension liabilities, stockholders got concerned, so they passed a bunch of changes through the Financial Accounting Standards Board to require accurate and fair reporting of pension liabilities. All public companies need to use Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and are thus required to report these pensions fairly. Guess what though. Government doesn't have to adhere to those rules. So you have a lot of State and local government politicians with short term interests, with nobody wanting to communicate the bad news, continuing to dig a deeper and deeper hole with these obligations that are unfunded. I have a pension at my company. Some of it is funded and some of it is not. I know exactly how much falls into what category. I know how much is at risk. Teachers in my state don't. They think it's all due to them and it's guaranteed. It's why my state is bankrupt. It's why we have the highest combined taxes of any state in the US. The average household owes $90,000 on these pensions. Think about that and let it sink in. That's the average taking all the people who won't be able to pay anywhere near that much money into the system. If you're going to increase salaries or provide better pension benefits, you have to find a place for the money to come from and bankrupt states aren't a good place to look. Why stop with the generous pensions? It's because we can't afford it. It's why big corporations, though pressured by unions for many years to keep increasing these benefits, had to cut back on them. They couldn't afford them either. It was a matter of survival. If you look at this article, which is a little old, it provides further perspective on pay.

Low Teacher Pay And High Teacher Pay Are Both Myths




You think? There is another way to look at it. It's an opportunity for people who have solid work experience to give students the benefit of their considerable practical experience in the workplace. They aren't doing it for the money because it's peanuts ($3,000 - $4,000 per class?). It's because they want to give back. I've had adjunct faculty in the past and they were for the most part excellent.



I got that from someone who worked at NASA for 30 years. He was a physicist who ended up quitting because he hated his pencil pusher procurement job so much. He wouldn't agree with you that the opportunities were exciting. He would say all the exciting work is being farmed out to contractors.



I agree pouring more money in isn't an answer. Look to Chicago for the results of that. I'm also not in support of the status quo I actually believe this issue to be pretty important. As an example, what do we do to prepare people to work in the trades? Nothing. Why should grade school and high school do nothing to educate people on skills they need for a job? Why does everyone have to go to college to get a good one? It's one of the biggest failings in our current system.

I'm not sure of this report accurately reflects what people should do, but it's one possibility.

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mc...roved_school_systems_keep_getting_better.ashx

Bloomberg initiated a lot of changes in NYC. It sounds like some of the things worked and others didn't.

A Quick Study on Mike Bloomberg’s Education Record as Mayor

I wouldn't trust McKinsey as far as I could throw them.

So many people bring up the trades like people on the left don't know what the fuck. Unions and employers are generally the go to for trades and apprenticeships. I often see community colleges playing a vital role. I have never not advocated for skilled trades as a career path - I have one child that is a plumber and one that is an electrician. Both in unions. One has a degree and one does not.

Bernie Sanders is the most pro-labor politician I have ever seen in my lifetime - that might be why the union members in NV and other states are voting for him with or without their unions' endorsement. Moderate centrists or corporate Dems are absolutely not a friend of unions with only a few exceptions (Sen. Sherrod Brown is one).

And frankly for someone that supports Republican, who have hammered away at unions for decades and would love nothing more than to see them eliminated, why are you even mentioning skilled trades? But it's a very typical argument that's aimed at libs and people on the left but I've never seen a right leaning person bring it up with any of the advocacy for kids to actually leave high school directly to an apprenticeship. Why is that?
 

SearchingforPeace

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I think they're the same, one just looks more respectable. Why do you think Trump is not like the billionaires you mentioned? Everything I've seen suggests that he's exactly like that.

They never accepted him in their club, like Dangerfield in Caddyshack.

 

highlander

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And frankly for someone that supports Republican, who have hammered away at unions for decades and would love nothing more than to see them eliminated, why are you even mentioning skilled trades? But it's a very typical argument that's aimed at libs and people on the left but I've never seen a right leaning person bring it up with any of the advocacy for kids to actually leave high school directly to an apprenticeship. Why is that?

No I'm not a supporter of unions. I think at one time, they were very important in this country - critical in fact. That day has passed. They nearly bankrupt the auto companies in the 80s. I don't see them doing much for education in the US

My dad got his apprenticeship in a factory when he was 14 years old in the UK. We don't do this kind of thing in the US. By the time he was 18, he was very skilled and in high demand with no worries whatsoever for a high paying job. The skills he acquired during his high school years stuck with him for his entire life. He didn't support unions either.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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They never accepted him in their club, like Dangerfield in Caddyshack.


That's really not that much better than him having a "pure heart", you know. I think you are as misguided as someone who would say those things about Bloomberg. And I have very good reasons for thinking so, based on his life before politics alone.
 

á´…eparted

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No I'm not a supporter of unions. I think at one time, they were very important in this country - critical in fact. That day has passed. They nearly bankrupt the auto companies in the 80s. I don't see them doing much for education in the US

My dad got his apprenticeship in a factory when he was 14 years old in the UK. We don't do this kind of thing in the US. By the time he was 18, he was very skilled and in high demand with no worries whatsoever for a high paying job. The skills he acquired during his high school years stuck with him for his entire life. He didn't support unions either.

You really don't know what you're talking about, and this shows it. You have a lot of information, but the dots are incorrectly put together. Unions are improperly seen as ineffectual and blood suckers because of republicans, and their relentless chipping away at them for decades.

I may or may not reply at length to your reply earlier, but I think I might be wasting my time after all, and I am getting less out of this than I thought I would.
 
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