2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[ceecee]

Among "online tests" sub-forum there is political test that in my mind hits very well certain issues.

It opposes the left-liberals to communists. What is logical because in human rights and personal prosperity those two have quite a number of differences from Communism. Which actually towards this map is basically a relative of fascism. What altogether is something that I can accept as realistic definition/map.

I think this could be a bit more detailed although it does make it pretty clear that fascists are on the right and always have been. I don't think I've seen one of these being as specific, usually they just label the entire thing "authoritarian"

 

[Jaguar]

Anyway, I was clarifying a very clear distinction

That everyone and their mother already knows. FFS, Bernie yammers on about it every day. Turn on the TV once in awhile. Btw, what are you going to do every time someone uses the word "socialist" without "democratic" in front of it - accuse them of not knowing the difference? Tell Amy that and see how far it gets you.

Amy Klobuchar: "I Am Troubled By Having A Socialist Lead Our Ticket" | Video | RealClearPolitics

 

[Maou]

I don't think the distinction between a democratic socialist, and a social democrat matter to those opposed to anything socialist to begin with. Which can include central liberals.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think the distinction between a democratic socialist, and a social democrat matter to those opposed to anything socialist to begin with. Which can include central liberals.

Exactly. This is why it doesn't matter. Fucking Mike Bloomberg would be get called a socialist by Republicans if he was nominated. It's no different because anyone who runs for office who isn't a Republican gets called a socialist.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Exactly. This is why it doesn't matter. Fucking Mike Bloomberg would be get called a socialist by Republicans if he was nominated. It's no different because anyone who runs for office who isn't a Republican gets called a socialist.

The funny part is that you are probably right. One chunk of USA is throwing "socialism" at just about everything they don't like.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The funny part is that you are probably right. One chunk of USA is throwing "socialism" at just about everything they don't like.

Yeah... the word "socialist" in American parlance pretty much just means everything that isn't Republican. Bernie doesn't describe himself as anything a Democratic candidate wouldn't get called anyway.

The only thing nominating Mike fucking Bloomberg would accomplish is get less people to turn out to vote against Trump, and maybe change the vote of Richard Spencer.

 

[Maou]

Exactly. This is why it doesn't matter. Fucking Mike Bloomberg would be get called a socialist by Republicans if he was nominated. It's no different because anyone who runs for office who isn't a Republican gets called a socialist.

I wouldn't say Republicans do that exclusively, its more likely the Libertarians to speak out about socialism.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I wouldn't say Republicans do that exclusively, its more likely the Libertarians to speak out about socialism.

Naw, Republicans do it like, all the time. Most people who call themselves Libertarians (or "classical liberals") are really just Republicans anyway.

 

[ceecee]

Exactly. This is why it doesn't matter. Fucking Mike Bloomberg would be get called a socialist by Republicans if he was nominated. It's no different because anyone who runs for office who isn't a Republican gets called a socialist.

Mike Bloomberg is a Republican. He is just as bad, perhaps worse, than Trump as far as policy is concerned. He appears more civil and polite than Trump and that's the ONLY reason any Democrats will vote for him. Same reason people wistfully speak of Obama. They didn't mind the imperialism, the drone escalation or any other shit policy, not to mention what wasn't reported. They miss the civility. That's it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Mike Bloomberg is a Republican. He is just as bad, perhaps worse, than Trump as far as policy is concerned. He appears more civil and polite than Trump and that's the ONLY reason any Democrats will vote for him. Same reason people wistfully speak of Obama. They didn't mind the imperialism, the drone escalation or any other shit policy, not to mention what wasn't reported. They miss the civility. That's it.

I mean, I get that, but I'm specifically speaking to the idea that a "moderate" has a bigger advantage in a general, which might also be part of the reasoning of people who would vote for Bloomberg in the primary. I've never seen an appeal to "norms", "civility" and "experience" actually win a presidential election. 2008 had nothing to do with norms and civility and was more about the past administration fucking up the country and somebody needed to fix it; McCain did a lot of running away from the past administration in the campaign from what I remember. Palin said the word "maverick" like 50 times in one speech.

Triangulation worked for Bill Clinton against the likes of Bush Sr. and Dole with help from Perot. This is a different fucking ballgame.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah... the word "socialist" in American parlance pretty much just means everything that isn't Republican. Bernie doesn't describe himself as anything a Democratic candidate wouldn't get called anyway.

To be honest I just find it funny in a way. They are so afraid of Socialism and just about everything around me is quite heavy on socialism (for better or for worse). However the idea that someone is panicking about your "lifestyle" is in a way just somewhere between bizarre and satisfying.


But to tell you the truth I was facepalming when you recently said that you are one of more radical people around here. I mean I get it but to me you are actually pretty mainstream on just about everything. Some people here claim that Bernie isn't democratic socialist but a socio-democrat, what is still actually something I don't really agree with fully. In western Europe he would be Socio-democrat. While here he would be more like a people friendly centrist or center right (at least in economy). This is because our system is generally even more to the left of western Europe. In the case you put his economic ideas on the big pile and run them in the form of conservative candidate that would probably be a landslide. What in a way would indeed be conservative because that would be voting for the continuation and traditional values. While voting for more market is more of a revolutionary thought here. The closest we have to DNC is around 2% or the vote and GOP doesn't even exist here. I can't even remember when was the last time I saw a report about local stock market in local mainstream news, the months have passed for sure. At one point they tried to make news that have stock market numbers included but they stopped. Probably because common people didn't care or someone complained how annoying "all these numbers" are on the screen. Until 2017 this was a mixed economy, but then the tilt came from the east and now it is socialism leaning. Consumerism is well accepted but in ownership and regulation government and foreign governments have very big say.


Therefore for me calling Bernie a radical is just silly even if I get the whole story. He still seem to be fairly capitalistic at the end of the day next to my "comrades".

 

[ceecee]

To be honest I just find it funny in a way. They are so afraid of Socialism and just about everything around me is quite heavy on socialism (for better or for worse). However the idea that someone is panicking about your "lifestyle" is in a way just somewhere between bizarre and satisfying.


But to tell you the truth I was facepalming when you recently said that you are one of more radical people around here. I mean I get it but to me you are actually pretty mainstream on just about everything. Some people here claim that Bernie isn't democratic socialist but a socio-democrat, what is still actually something I don't really agree with fully. In western Europe he would be Socio-democrat. While here he would be more like a people friendly centrist or center right (at least in economy). This is because our system is generally even more to the left of western Europe. In the case you put his economic ideas on the big pile and run them in the form of conservative candidate that would probably be a landslide. What in a way would indeed be conservative because that would be voting for the continuation and traditional values. While voting for more market is more of a revolutionary thought here. The closest we have to DNC is around 2% or the vote and GOP doesn't even exist here. I can't even remember when was the last time I saw a report about local stock market in local mainstream news, the months have passed for sure. At one point they tried to make news that have stock market numbers included but they stopped. Probably because common people didn't care or someone complained how annoying "all these numbers" are on the screen. Until 2017 this was a mixed economy, but then the tilt came from the east and now it is socialism leaning. Consumerism is well accepted but in ownership and regulation government and foreign governments have very big say.


Therefore for me calling Bernie a radical is just silly even if I get the whole story. He still seem to be fairly capitalistic at the end of the day next to my "comrades".

Right. It's so incredibly dumb, not to mention the ones that think they can arbitrarily assign "gender" to a economic and political system. The ignorance you see here is just a tiny portion, it's so widespread.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

To be honest I just find it funny in a way. They are so afraid of Socialism and just about everything around me is quite heavy on socialism (for better or for worse). However the idea that someone is panicking about your "lifestyle" is in a way just somewhere between bizarre and satisfying.


But to tell you the truth I was facepalming when you recently said that you are one of more radical people around here. I mean I get it but to me you are actually pretty mainstream on just about everything. Some people here claim that Bernie isn't democratic socialist but a socio-democrat, what is still actually something I don't really agree with fully. In western Europe he would be Socio-democrat. While here he would be more like a people friendly centrist or center right (at least in economy). This is because our system is generally even more to the left of western Europe. In the case you put his economic ideas on the big pile and run them in the form of conservative candidate that would probably be a landslide. What in a way would indeed be conservative because that would be voting for the continuation and traditional values. While voting for more market is more of a revolutionary thought here. The closest we have to DNC is around 2% or the vote and GOP doesn't even exist here. I can't even remember when was the last time I saw a report about local stock market in local mainstream news, the months have passed for sure. At one point they tried to make news that have stock market numbers included but they stopped. Probably because common people didn't care or someone complained how annoying "all these numbers" are on the screen. Until 2017 this was a mixed economy, but then the tilt came from the east and now it is socialism leaning. Consumerism is well accepted but in ownership and regulation government and foreign governments have very big say.


Therefore for me calling Bernie a radical is just silly even if I get the whole story. He still seem to be fairly capitalistic at the end of the day next to my "comrades".

I meant that I'm more radical in the context of the population of this forum, not necessarily worldwide. I get what you mean because I've seen people on reddit say things like how they're compromising on their values by voting for a succdem (nevar forgat succdems killed Rosa 11111!!!!) and embracing electoralism. To be fair, I think these people (who appear to be Americans) are either very young or very sheltered to be able to type things like that with a straight face.

 

[Maou]

Naw, Republicans do it like, all the time. Most people who call themselves Libertarians (or "classical liberals") are really just Republicans anyway.

Define "Republican", because voting and actual beliefs are very much different. Libertarians are far more likely to vote Republican, simply on the basis of not socializing medicine. "Neo-Liberals" are the same. They were originally part of the Democratic party, but eventually went to Republicans. Its more the result of the 2 party system than anything else. But people shouldn't lump each other as such. (as hard as that can be)

 

[Maou]

Mike Bloomberg is a Republican. He is just as bad, perhaps worse, than Trump as far as policy is concerned. He appears more civil and polite than Trump and that's the ONLY reason any Democrats will vote for him. Same reason people wistfully speak of Obama. They didn't mind the imperialism, the drone escalation or any other shit policy, not to mention what wasn't reported. They miss the civility. That's it.

This is exactly why I hated him and called him a hack. His politeness is the only reason anyone would vote for him over Trump. I 100% guarantee the only reason he ran as a Democrat was due to the pendulum theory etc. Though I think his intentions are far more deceitful than Trump. Like I said in the beginning of this thread, I already picked the one democratic candidate I would support if any. Which was Klobuchar.

In the meantime, I will laugh at his hireing of "meme makers", because that shit is funny.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Define "Republican", because voting and actual beliefs are very much different. Libertarians are far more likely to vote Republican, simply on the basis of not socializing medicine. "Neo-Liberals" are the same. They were originally part of the Democratic party, but eventually went to Republicans. Its more the result of the 2 party system than anything else. But people shouldn't lump each other as such. (as hard as that can be)

Naw, there are neo-liberals in the Democratic party.

 

[ceecee]

Naw, there are neo-liberals in the Democratic party.

Just The Tip Trumpers.

 

[Maou]

To be honest I just find it funny in a way. They are so afraid of Socialism and just about everything around me is quite heavy on socialism (for better or for worse). However the idea that someone is panicking about your "lifestyle" is in a way just somewhere between bizarre and satisfying.


But to tell you the truth I was facepalming when you recently said that you are one of more radical people around here. I mean I get it but to me you are actually pretty mainstream on just about everything. Some people here claim that Bernie isn't democratic socialist but a socio-democrat, what is still actually something I don't really agree with fully. In western Europe he would be Socio-democrat. While here he would be more like a people friendly centrist or center right (at least in economy). This is because our system is generally even more to the left of western Europe. In the case you put his economic ideas on the big pile and run them in the form of conservative candidate that would probably be a landslide. What in a way would indeed be conservative because that would be voting for the continuation and traditional values. While voting for more market is more of a revolutionary thought here. The closest we have to DNC is around 2% or the vote and GOP doesn't even exist here. I can't even remember when was the last time I saw a report about local stock market in local mainstream news, the months have passed for sure. At one point they tried to make news that have stock market numbers included but they stopped. Probably because common people didn't care or someone complained how annoying "all these numbers" are on the screen. Until 2017 this was a mixed economy, but then the tilt came from the east and now it is socialism leaning. Consumerism is well accepted but in ownership and regulation government and foreign governments have very big say.


Therefore for me calling Bernie a radical is just silly even if I get the whole story. He still seem to be fairly capitalistic at the end of the day next to my "comrades".

I would say the basis of American anti-socialism is rooted in our history, and the idea of independence more than anything. I would say it is even part of American culture. While I agree that American medicine is shit price wise, but we do not have wait times. We have very high quality care. Far as I am concerned, apart from costs. Its great.

Another thing you should take note of, is that it is not good that every country be exactly the same. Look at it from an evolutionary perspective. Diversity is unironically the strength in globalism. That applies to government structures too. The more different each country is, the more it can provide different opinions and survive different things. I think America does something that other countries do not, and that is a good thing.

 

[Maou]

Naw, there are neo-liberals in the Democratic party.

Dude, I am Neo-Liberal by many standards. I vote Republican.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I would say the basis of American anti-socialism is rooted in our history, and the idea of independence more than anything. I would say it is even part of American culture. While I agree that American medicine is shit price wise, but we do not have wait times. We have very high quality care. Far as I am concerned, apart from costs. Its great.
.

Lol, we pay more and we get worse outcomes for it. Not exactly great.