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2020 Democratic Party primary thread

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Of course but I can only go by the small amount of people I know that support Tulsi and supported Sara Palin. Tulsi is a paleocon and isolationist/Fortress America is not something I support. .

You're against the E.U but you think the U.S needs to be more interventionist?
 

tinker683

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I hate the debates. Mostly because the DNC controls them but the format is ridiculous. Town Hall style is better, one at a time.

Agreed. The CNN one with Warren and Bernie was awful, it had all of the makings of a WWE event. It was really cool when Warren and Bernie hit back and refused to play along.
 

ceecee

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Oh, I remember that speech. That pissed me off.

Regarding Israel, I don't see myself as being pro-Israel (like I don't think it should matter whether or not an American politician supports Israel) , but I am really bothered by people who don't seem to understand why Jews are pro Israel and seem perfectly find engaging in tropes and don't have any interest in finding a different way to discuss the situation. There's a sort of leftist (usually a tankie) that considers me a "Zionist" merely for saying that, and is way more comfortable being friends with someone who goes on about Rothschild banking conspiracies.

I actually hate the Chapo subreddit because it's full of people who seem like that. I don't know how the podcast can be so awesome and the subreddit can be so lame.

I can be critical of the Israeli government and not critical of the Jewish people. I can also understand when someone from another country is critical of Trump, they're not being critical of me or any other American. Why this is so hard to grasp for some I do not know. Not saying you aren't grasping this.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I agree on townhalls. Debates should be reserved until it’s been whittled down to 3 or less
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I can be critical of the Israeli government and not critical of the Jewish people. I can also understand when someone from another country is critical of Trump, they're not being critical of me or any other American. Why this is so hard to grasp for some I do not know. Not saying you aren't grasping this.

I'm not saying you can't be critical of the Israeli government, but then you aren't calling me a "Zionist" while befriending people who go on about Jewish pizzagate just because they like Jeremy Corbyn (which I've seen in other places). It's hard to make the case that their issue is just with Israel if they do that kind of thing.
 

ceecee

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You're against the E.U but you think the U.S needs to be more interventionist?


I never said I wanted the US to have more intervention. I do not. But I am comfortable with the EU and every neoliberal entity, which has done more to destroy the worlds people and planet than any other thing, can get shot into the sun.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I never said I wanted the US to have more intervention. I do not. But I am comfortable with the EU and every neoliberal entity, which has done more to destroy the worlds people and planet than any other thing, can get shot into the sun.

Well, what did you mean about Tulsi and "fortress America" then? I'm wary of neoconservative ideas gaining re-acceptance among liberals and the left just because Trump isn't on board with them. Lots of neoconservatives haven't given up on their project, and they need somewhere to go now that the Republicans have rejected them.
 

ceecee

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Well, what did you mean about Tulsi and "fortress America" then? I'm wary of neoconservative ideas gaining re-acceptance among liberals and the left just because Trump isn't on board with them.

I would blame MSNBC and liberal media for much of that neocon acceptance. Max Boot, Bill Kristol, John Podhoretz, John Bolton, all neocon warmongering fucks who can also get shot into the sun. I see Trump's wall as Fortress America.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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If we're talking about old school conservatives circa 1936 who were actually anti-intervention (vs Trump who pretended to be anti-intervention during the 2016 campaign), then I can understand the comparison to Tulsi. Just not understanding how she fits the paleoconservative mold. Please explain.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I would blame MSNBC and liberal media for much of that neocon acceptance. Max Boot, Bill Kristol, John Podhoretz, John Bolton, all neocon warmongering fucks who can also get shot into the sun. I see Trump's wall as Fortress America.

Does Tulsi support a wall? If so, I will definitely rescind my support. I'm engaged in a lot of activism in opposition to ICE and anti-immigrant hysteria, and did some rapid response training yesterday.

It was also funny at the event the way they speak about Comprehensive Immigration Reform as being vague doublespeak for politicians trying to have it both ways.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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For fuck's sake, I declined Birthright. The only thing I'm asking is for people to understand history when they talk about the issues. That's all.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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It's....alarming...how much old neoconservative principles seem to have seeped into the democratic party. Some of the positions I see now would be unthinkable for dems to hold when they were opposing W.

here is a quote from the NYT piece on Gabbard:

Tulsi Gabbard is running for president of a country that she believes has wrought horror on the world, and she wants its citizens to remember that.

It's weird to see that sort of veiled mockery coming from the NYT of all sources. It's odd, I remember when many democrats and progressives wanted to leave the rest of the world alone and focus on things like rebuilding infrastructure, healthcare, strengthening the middle class without sacrificing the lower classes' safety nets, etc. What changed?

To say anti-interventionism is the same as Trumpism...just seems like a false dilemma paradox. It's not a binary choice. It's not either/or here.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Does Tulsi support a wall? If so, I will definitely rescind my support. I'm engaged in a lot of activism in opposition to ICE and anti-immigrant hysteria, and did some rapid response training yesterday.

It was also funny at the event the way they speak about Comprehensive Immigration Reform as being vague doublespeak for politicians trying to have it both ways.

As far as I've researched, she is against the mass deportations and shit like the travel ban. She supported DREAM.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It's....alarming...how much old neoconservative principles seem to have seeped into the democratic party. Some of the positions I see now would be unthinkable for dems to hold when they were opposing W.
Well if you remember, it was never a universal Democratic position. Hillary, Biden and the 2004 nominee for President all supported the war in Iraq, despite the flimsiness of the evidence for WMDs. It makes sense, in a sad sort of way, that a Republican president opposing interventionism would be all it would take for those factions to try to re-emerge and perhaps even attempt to ally with neoconservatives (who probably still love those tax cuts too much to vote Democratic anyway).
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Well if you remember, it was never a universal Democratic position. Hillary, Biden and the 2004 nominee for President all supported the war in Iraq, despite the flimsiness of the evidence for WMDs. It makes sense, in a sad sort of way, that a Republican president opposing interventionism would be all it would take for those factions to try to re-emerge and perhaps even attempt to ally with neoconservatives (who probably still love those tax cuts too much to vote Democratic anyway).

That was why I defected to support Gary Johnson when Clinton got the nomination--it was less about economics than the fact that he was running on an anti-interventionist position, to the point of not even knowing what Aleppo is LOL. I'm willing to vote for democrats I dislike as the lesser of two evils, but I'll never support the more hawkish wing of the dem party. I was reluctant to support Kerry because I thought his sudden opposition (and it really wasn't even a true opposition, just him saying he would've gone to Iraq with more allies than W did) seemed like an attempt to grab some of Dean's old supporters. It also didn't really do him any favors, since I think a lot of independents and even some moderates figured why rock the boat and change administrations if Kerry wasn't really proposing a course of action much different from Bush's. It's all fine and well to run on a "anybody but the other guy" platform, but the eventual nominee needs to also say why they're a better option rather than just mirroring them on major policy. If Biden is nominated, I fear that will happen again.

I never seriously considered Trump because I had a feeling that what would happen is exactly what is happening now, that he'd be too obsessed with twitter to reign in the hawkish grifters like Bolton who were waiting to take a job in his administration so they could push their neocon agenda. Obviously there were other reasons to oppose Trump but that was a big one for me, and this might determine whether I support the eventual DNC pick or defect for third party again.
 

Totenkindly

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No, but I hope she at least makes it to the next debate. it's unfortunately obvious to me that her ideas still need more of a platform.

I haven't dug into them, but I'm seeing some stuff that Jewish people on my feed are reading as anti-semitic regarding her (which is ironic, I think ceecee says she's pro-Israel... sorry, skimming thread, don't ask me)... now I gotta research THAT. Sigh. So much vetting to do in a post-truth world...

But yeah, pretty much this is going to narrow down to 7-8 people with a frontrunner or three, and then everything really gets more serious.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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That was why I defected to support Gary Johnson when Clinton got the nomination--it was less about economics than the fact that he was running on an anti-interventionist position, to the point of not even knowing what Aleppo is LOL. I'm willing to vote for democrats I dislike as the lesser of two evils, but I'll never support the more hawkish wing of the dem party. I was reluctant to support Kerry because I thought his sudden opposition (and it really wasn't even a true opposition, just him saying he would've gone to Iraq with more allies than W did) seemed like an attempt to grab some of Dean's old supporters. It also didn't really do him any favors, since I think a lot of independents and even some moderates figured why rock the boat and change administrations if Kerry wasn't really proposing a course of action much different from Bush's. It's all fine and well to run on a "anybody but the other guy" platform, but the eventual nominee needs to also say why they're a better option rather than just mirroring them on major policy. If Biden is nominated, I fear that will happen again.

Those are my thoughts regarding Biden. Of course the polling is good now, but what about next year when he's on full display? (Really the upset in the polls was overstated, it was more the media class talking about Hillary as inevitable that caused everything to be blindsided and doing things like looking at them selectively, like for instance, looking at gains in Georgia and ignoring problems in places like Wisconsin. Technically, the polls were right overall, because they tended to not have her winning by a huge margin, but squeaking by. It's just that in this country we have the hallowed norm of the electoral college, so it doesn't matter that she won the popular vote. 538 gave Trump a 1 in 3 chance of winning after that Comey fuckery [still don't care that Trump fired him] which was a very significant narrowing of the race. If there was a 1 in 3 chance that I'd be successful at something, I'd go for it. )
I never seriously considered Trump because I had a feeling that what would happen is exactly what is happening now, that he'd be too obsessed with twitter to reign in the hawkish, but grifters like Bolton who were waiting to take a job in his administration so they could push their neocon agenda. Obviously there were other reasons to oppose Trump but that was a big one for me, and this might determine whether I support the eventual DNC pick or defect for third party again.

I voted for Clinton because I was halfway checked out of the damn thing anyway. I would say that in my gut, I always thought Trump would win, even if I sometimes went with the prevailing narrative. Trump really is a clown who cares too much about himself to pose any kind of benefit for folks. I wouldn't call him worst President ever because he has less blood on his hands, but he's acted in line with my expectations that he couldn't be trusted to drain the swamp. But I had a hard time thinking of any positive to voting for Clinton other then the fact that she probably wouldn't renege on the Iran deal, despite her hawkishness; it was really kind of a Stannis situation, lol.

The big surprise for me in 2016 was really how far Bernie got. I'm rather encouraged by that. I expected him to end up like Howard Dean, but he did way better, even in places that are supposed to be more conservative. Lends some credence to that book "What's the matter with Kansas?".
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I hadn't intended to rehash 2016 but she really did blow it in those northern Midwest states by ignoring them after the primary season. Did she acknowledge this in her recent book? I know she blamed some other reasons on losing, but not sure if she addressed this point. Same similar mistake Gore made in 2000 when he refused to campaign in his home state, which could've put him over 270 without winning florida.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I haven't dug into them, but I'm seeing some stuff that Jewish people on my feed are reading as anti-semitic regarding her (which is ironic, I think ceecee says she's pro-Israel... sorry, skimming thread, don't ask me)... now I gotta research THAT. Sigh. So much vetting to do in a post-truth world...

Hmm, just doing my lazy Google search, I don't see anything to justify it. There's criticisms of her opposing Israel's actions in Gaza in some situation, which was probably the right call for her, and I guess she defended Omar, who apologized?
 
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