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  1. #1
    ha-ha-hoo Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Default Can someone explain to me why people supported Brexit in the first place?

    Was it just anti-immigrant anti-refugee stuff or was there more to it? I heard some British guy a few years going on about how the EU was a "fourth Reich" or something and I just rolled my eyes. Now it seems to have just devolved into a colossal mess for the U.K... (oops, sorry, I meant England... evidently according to Trump, they changed the name because of political correctness). My understanding is that evidently the Tories mostly voted against a "no-deal" Brexit, but Boris Johnson might do one anyway, since he wants to fight the E.U.'s insistence on a hard border with Northern Ireland (who knew imperialism had such complicated after-effects?) if they pursue a "no deal." Anyway, the deadline they have to figure all this out is Halloween, which has all likelihood of being a very spooky day for the U.K.

    It seems to me like the U.K. must have benefited a great deal from being in the E.U (or the Tories wouldn't have voted against a "no deal" Brexit), so why the hell did they want to leave? It does seem like the Conservative party in the U.K is in big trouble because of this impossible situation (and I actually kind of liked David Cameron).
    A path is made by walking on it.

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  2. #2
    Saprophytic Aphrodite Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Have you seen The Great Hack on Netflix? You should.
    Perpetual mood


    "It is not the personality's task to tell the truth,
    but to seem to, try to, or try to seem to."


    Philip Trussell

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  3. #3
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    1) There is more to it than immigration. It is more supernationalism v intergovernmentalism. The UK was always had a awkward relationship with other EU ever since France vetoed it first couple of applications to join. The UK had to give up its trade links with commonwealth countries in favour of countries it had next to nothing in common with. Most of Britain allies in EU are the country who have little power like Sweden, Netherlands, so it is ever heading further strained relationship. The UK has pretty much given up on EU reform. The UK can't sign its own trade deals while in EU so it has no free trade agreement with its allies such as the US.

    2) The default position is as of now is the UK leaves EU on 31st of October. The UK parliament has already voted to leave and has asked EU to leave. Unless new legislation is passed or EU offers a further extension the UK will leave by default. So to suggest parliament voted against no deal is not really true since no deal is default position currently and they voted for that to be the case

    3) You have it a bit wonky regarding border. The UK had no intention of having NI border wall: the EU will make Ireland make a wall in a no deal inorder to UK stop flooding the common market with cheap goods. Unionist in NI want to be more like rest of UK and less like Republic of Ireland so they will be pretty pleased. It is toxic politically for Republic of Ireland to make wall. The wall would only apply to goods as Ireland and UK will have freedom of movement with each other irrespective of what happens between EU and UK. Some people think the backstop is nothing more than the EU keeping UK in by the back door. The DUP and Tories have no big deal with hard border in island of Ireland, rather the UK concern is purely if there will be renewed conflict in Northern Ireland and how best avioding that while also leaving EU. Hence, UK is not really bothered about border either way. It is more a case EU making it condition of having a deal.

    4)The British people were asked if they wanted to leave not how they wanted to leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  4. #4
    ha-ha-hoo Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    1) There is more to it than immigration. It is more supernationalism v intergovernmentalism. The UK was always had a awkward relationship with other EU ever since France vetoed it first couple of applications to join. The UK had to give up its trade links with commonwealth countries in favour of countries it had next to nothing in common with. Most of Britain allies in EU are the country who have little power like Sweden, Netherlands, so it is ever heading further strained relationship. The UK has pretty much given up on EU reform. The UK can't sign its own trade deals while in EU so it has no free trade agreement with its allies such as the US.
    Thanks. I've seen a lot of British people on the internet complain about Muslims, so I figured it must have had something to do with that.

    2) The default position is as of now is the UK leaves EU on 31st of October. The UK parliament has already voted to leave and has asked EU to leave. Unless new legislation is passed or EU offers a further extension the UK will leave by default. So to suggest parliament voted against no deal is not really true since no deal is default position currently and they voted for that to be the case
    I understand that No Deal is the default. But... yes, there are many Tory members who do not support No Deal.

    Q&A: Can Boris Johnson really force through a no-deal Brexit? | UK news | The Guardian
    Quote Originally Posted by The Guardian
    In theory yes. Johnson said outside No 10 last Wednesday that the country must prepare for no deal. But he would run into huge opposition from MPs of all parties
    Is that incorrect? Is there no Tory opposition to No Deal? How many MPs support No Deal, and how many do not or support remain?

    3) You have it a bit wonky regarding border. The UK had no intention of having NI border wall: the EU will make Ireland make a wall in a no deal inorder to UK stop flooding the common market with cheap goods. Unionist in NI want to be more like rest of UK and less like Republic of Ireland so they will be pretty pleased. It is toxic politically for Republic of Ireland to make wall. The wall would only apply to goods as Ireland and UK will have freedom of movement with each other irrespective of what happens between EU and UK. Some people think the backstop is nothing more than the EU keeping UK in by the back door. The DUP and Tories have no big deal with hard border in island of Ireland, rather the UK concern is purely if there will be renewed conflict in Northern Ireland and how best avioding that while also leaving EU. Hence, UK is not really bothered about border either way. It is more a case EU making it condition of having a deal.
    Yes, but the Tories certainly don't want a hard border in Ireland, do they (which is what I assume you mean by wall)?
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  5. #5
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    You can't pinpoint since it is the mix of: anti-immigration, nationalism, misinformation, various influences, grass is greener elsewhere .....


    However I will also dare to say "which people" regarding the title. For many years MPs in EU parliament say stuff like "Just leave already", many countries/people in Europe want this because mess in UK works for them (especially since they are hopping that their people/experts will go back) or they simply want more unified EU, globally many like Brexit since it creates much clearer border between EU and English speaking world. What leaves a mark on the whole process. The narrative that only Brits are pro Brexit is wrong way to look at this issue.
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    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Btw someone should perhaps open a thread about the debates and 2020. This is probably why politics is reopened in the first place and it is kinda stupid if none American does it.

    At this point I am here mostly just to observe and for the most part I already said what I have to say.

  7. #7
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    Thanks. I've seen a lot of British people on the internet complain about Muslims, so I figured it must have had something to do with that.



    I understand that No Deal is the default. But... yes, there are many Tory members who do not support No Deal.

    Q&A: Can Boris Johnson really force through a no-deal Brexit? | UK news | The Guardian


    Is that incorrect? Is there no Tory opposition to No Deal? How many MPs support No Deal, and how many do not or support remain?



    Yes, but the Tories certainly don't want a hard border in Ireland, do they (which is what I assume you mean by wall)?
    What has Muslims got to do with EU?

    It is not that there is no opposition to no deal but rather few Tory MP are remotely pro-remain and those who would be considered Eurosceptic anywhere else in Europe. At the end of the day any Tory MP will have to either vote with the government or protentally lose their seat as the average Tory voter is pro-Brexit. The government has a majority of 2 at the moment and could protentally be 1 today if they lose by-election (which is highly likely). The average Tory supporter is furious the UK has not already left the EU, which is the whole reason Theresa May lost her job. If it comes down to no deal or not leaving then any Conservative government would have to leave with no deal otherwise they are done as a party.

    There are only three ways no deal can be prevented on October 31. Either parliament approves a Brexit deal; or the UK and EU agree an extension; or the government losing both no confidence vote and election and a party winning by promising to revokes Article 50 altogether. The second option is most likely and third least likely.

    It is doubtful the average Tory member really care about NI, and polling seems to support that.

    Majority of Tory members would give up Northern Ireland for Brexit, poll shows

    What makes one think anyone in rest of UK really cares about any border situation in Ireland?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.
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  8. #8
    Primal evil Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    1) The ability to control their own country more freely without big brother EU pressuring them into doing things they do not want.

    This is honestly the most important factor. EU has been forcing them to take refugees they can't afford etc. They can't resist the EU, because its not democratic as not all of them are elected. The BS they pull with referendums too.
    “An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way.”
    Charles Bukowski
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  9. #9
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris View Post
    1) The ability to control their own country more freely without big brother EU pressuring them into doing things they do not want.

    This is honestly the most important factor. EU has been forcing them to take refugees they can't afford etc. They can't resist the EU, because its not democratic as none of them are elected. The BS they pull with referendums too.
    I have no idea from where did you pull this out ?


    1. Plenty of EU countries that are much weaker than UK didn't take any refugees. Actually they didn't even lose benefits over this.


    2. Who isn't elected ? EU parliament is elected directly by the people. While European council is made out of head of states that make the block and which are all elected in their own countries, so they together design European commission that makes the political summaries and strategies for the block. It isn't perfect system but people evidently vote in it.


    However UK wanted to be bigger than it is and now it is in a mess since all hell come out of the closet. Since UK itself is glued block.

  10. #10
    Primal evil Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I have no idea from where did you pull this out ?


    1. Plenty of EU countries that are much weaker than UK didn't take any refugees. Actually they didn't even lose benefits over this.


    2. Who isn't elected ? EU parliament is elected directly by the people. While European council is made out of head of states that make the block and which are all elected in their own countries, so they together design European commission that makes the political summaries and strategies for the block. It isn't perfect system but people evidently vote in it.


    However UK wanted to be bigger than it is and now it is in a mess since all hell come out of the closet. Since UK itself is glued block.
    There are people elected from within the government (which is what I am talking about), not the people. Who pass laws that affect all member states. Member states have no real power in controlling the EUs desicions once in office. Which opens up room for an extreme amount of corruption.
    “An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way.”
    Charles Bukowski

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