Can someone explain to me why people supported Brexit in the first place?

[ceecee]

Well I did say that it isn't perfect and there are areas to repair for sure, but to say that all of these people are unelected is just completely missing too many things. Plus what is really western world ? Is Boris elected ? Was May elected at first ? Was Gordon Brown elected ? From what I understand UK House of Lords is unelected by law. Does US by law elects president indirectly through electoral college and perhaps even regardless of popular vote ? What can their citizens really do if they are annoyed with crucial policies or president, since there are no snap elections ? EU isn't really lagging that much behind if at all in this game. The system is actually quite decent if we consider what the union assimilated over the last 15 years.


If EU was really as pushy as you say plenty of my local politicians wouldn't be able to get away with all kinds of things, renegotiate or change deadlines. However my politics can do this since they aren't so cognitively obsessed with rules. But since it is a block of countries there needs to be some basic rules, not everyone can be happy 100% of the time.



But ok, I actually support Brexit. That should make things easier on the long run for everyone.

Personally I feel any neoliberal entity like the EU should be should be shot into the sun but I'm not sure that the way the UK went about this divorce is going to benefit them (voted that they wanted to go, not how they wanted to go). Unfortunately the UK leaders in this thing are fairly disgusting and will likely do very little to benefit anyone beyond themselves and people like them (house of Lords looking at you).

If things don't go the way the pro-Brexit people are hoping, there are extreme right nationalist movements happening all over Europe and can easily suck up a country with a weak democracy and social upheaval, which they very much have a history of doing. It's something that would be helpful to keep in mind.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Personally I feel any neoliberal entity like the EU should be should be shot into the sun but I'm not sure that the way the UK went about this divorce is going to benefit them (voted that they wanted to go, not how they wanted to go). Unfortunately the UK leaders in this thing are fairly disgusting and will likely do very little to benefit anyone beyond themselves and people like them (house of Lords looking at you).

Hmm, I tend to think it's a positive development when you contrast it with things like, oh I don't know, world wars.

 

[ceecee]

Hmm, I tend to think it's a positive development when you contrast it with things like, oh I don't know, world wars.

Do you mean the EU is a positive development? Or Brexit?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Do you mean the EU is a positive development? Or Brexit?

The EU.



Granted, it looks like most of the socdem parties involved really became a lot like the U.S. Democratic party, but I think things could be worse. I suppose the Green parties have done rather well in the last elections so maybe that's a positive development. I'm not too crazy about that one party in Greece some people on the left were orgasming about a few years ago since they allied themselves with the far right, which Angela Merkel never did.

 

[ceecee]

The EU.



Granted, it looks like most of the socdem parties involved really became a lot like the U.S. Democratic party, but I think things could be worse. I suppose the Green parties have done rather well in the last elections so maybe that's a positive development. I'm not too crazy about that one party in Greece some people on the left were orgasming about a few years ago since they allied themselves with the far right, which Angela Merkel never did.

Sure but the UK didn't join the EU until 1973, many have said to stop economic decline.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Sure but the UK didn't join the EU until 1973, many have said to stop economic decline.

I suppose personally I care little about whether the U.K stays or leaves, but the way they're going about it seems to be a shitshow, hilariously in part because of Northern Ireland.

Regarding the EU as an institution, for me to hop on board the anti-EU train, you'd have to convince me that there would be anti-EU political forces to counter LePenism or Alessandra Mussolini and their equivalents. I haven't really seen that. And again, it's troubling that the closest thing to that I've seen was perfectly fine allying with the far right.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Personally I feel any neoliberal entity like the EU should be should be shot into the sun but I'm not sure that the way the UK went about this divorce is going to benefit them (voted that they wanted to go, not how they wanted to go). Unfortunately the UK leaders in this thing are fairly disgusting and will likely do very little to benefit anyone beyond themselves and people like them (house of Lords looking at you).

If things don't go the way the pro-Brexit people are hoping, there are extreme right nationalist movements happening all over Europe and can easily suck up a country with a weak democracy and social upheaval, which they very much have a history of doing. It's something that would be helpful to keep in mind.

Just for the record, I think you are wrong in saying that EU is neoliberal entity. EU is more like the project that was kidnapped by neoliberalism for the most part, similar to US government. However the only one who is willing to truly stand to this are nationalists and far left, so this is why we are where we are. Since there really is no mainstream/democratic alternative to neoliberalism, corporatism or however you want to call it. In my place and neighboring countries plenty of normal people were pushed to the extremes with this, even if they aren't fundamentally radical. Which is why it is logical to define neoliberalism as totalitarian ideology, since it is basically totalitarian form of Capitalism. Because it doesn't really accept any alternatives and different explanations.


This ideology is enough auto-destructive that it will destroy itself and the only real question is what it will take with it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The EU.



Granted, it looks like most of the socdem parties involved really became a lot like the U.S. Democratic party, but I think things could be worse. I suppose the Green parties have done rather well in the last elections so maybe that's a positive development. I'm not too crazy about that one party in Greece some people on the left were orgasming about a few years ago since they allied themselves with the far right, which Angela Merkel never did.

Actually even in greens you still have a fair amount of neoliberalism and "facebook culture". This is exactly why west and east of the union are in conflict, since western politicians all look like the carrierists that can't be trusted. While ours are generally misguided, authoritarian or corrupt, but they for the most part don't have this fake charmer vibe as western ones. Since most of them are far righters or Communists/ex communists. UK is leaving partially exactly since it is uncomfortable with our politicians, or at least that is my impression.

 

[ceecee]

Just for the record, I think you are wrong in saying that EU is neoliberal entity. EU is more like the project that was kidnapped by neoliberalism for the most part, similar to US government. However the only one who is willing to truly stand to this are nationalists and far left, so this is why we are where we are. Since there really is no mainstream/democratic alternative to neoliberalism, corporatism or however you want to call it. In my place and neighboring countries plenty of normal people were pushed to the extremes with this, even if they aren't fundamentally radical. Which is why it is logical to define neoliberalism as totalitarian ideology, since it is basically totalitarian form of Capitalism. Because it doesn't really accept any alternatives and different explanations.


This ideology is enough auto-destructive that it will destroy itself and the only real question is what it will take with it.

I'm comfortable with framing the EU in this way.

 

[Falcarius]

I will tell you a little story

...

However I am telling you all of this due to concrete reasoning: Some don't want to admit this but EU at this point is basically "counseling group for those from violent and dysfunctional families". Since from the start it is spreading into countries that are ex dictatorships in order to to try to fix the situation there. Until 70s almost all of the continent was covered with dictatorships, or at least ex WW2 dictatorships and ruins. In other words almost all EU members had long term dictatorship in 20th century and the primary goal of EU is just to keep the peace and repair the damage. This is exactly why we see huge backlash against everyone that is for more capitalistic neo-liberal politics, since trade isn't what EU should be all about, because trade and money divide but definition. However if you don't share our totalitarian history and problems that came out of it you don't understand what is really going on here. You can criticize the whole group as much as you like but that wouldn't achieve anything of substance. Therefore if you are going to threat abuse support group as a business meeting you are evidently in the wrong place.

UK: Come and stay with me I will protect you from your rapist?
EU: OK, Cool
Half a decade later
EU: I moving out to live with my rapists cousin and brother.
UK: You what?
EU: Sorry, it is for the best.
Years later
UK: Let’s give this another go, what do you think?
EU: Sorry I am busy.
UK
years later
UK: Come on lets give it another go?
EU: Nah, sorry but no thanks... It is not you it is me.
UK:
Years later
UK: C’mon I am begging you. You can even move in with your annoying house mates?
EU: Ok, I suppose
UK: Lets get married?
EU: Maybe we should do pre-marriage counselling first?
UK:Nah, it will be OK as I have been waiting long enough plus I have managed to put up with your annoying house mates so I can put up with anything.
EU: OK
UK: I have been talking to my mum; she thinks you don't really love me and I could do better.
EU: I am not forcing you but have a think about it.
UK: Let's do it baby!
A couple of kids and years married life later.
EU: Now our kids have grown, how do you feel about adopting some kids?
UK: Ok, I suppose. If I must...
EU:
Years later
UK: I can't believe you let our adopted kids shit in my office. What have I told you about doing that. We can't take them anywhere! If you do that again I am leaving!!!
EU: Soz but they are kiddos they don't know any better. They have a traumatic start in life.
Uk: I don't care they ruined my paperwork.
Years later
Uk: I have been thinking lets have marriage counselling and have a prenuptial agreement
EU:NO, NO, NO!
A few years later.
UK: I don't know how to tell you without hurting your feelings but I have been talking to my mum again and have decided to you divorce you. Letting our adopted children shit in my office was bad enough but letting them shit in my Ferrari is the last straw!!!
EU: OK,
Months later
UK: Let's delay it. these divorce proceeding are messing up my credit rating.
EU: Ok darling whatever.
UK: We really have to get on with it.
EU: Whatever...
UK There is no way you are having my Ferrari to take our adopted children to school as part of the settlement.
EU: But... you promised!!
UK: I don't care, you either let me have the Ferrari or you can have nothing.
EU: I am never talking to you again!!!
UK: Ok, babe... whatever. Sue me!!



But that is the thing, the UK has a complete different political culture and history. The UK has never been a dictatorship in living memory nor on the side of Nazi during WWII, so the EU was never about post-WWII stability as far as the county was concerned. Unlike every other country who has ever joined the EU it was slapped in the face when had its applications to join in 1963 and 1967 vetoed by Charles de Gaulle. UK turned Charles de Gaulle from an obscure officer into de facto world leader long before he was ever elected, fostered him, protected him, and supplied him with an army during WW2; which goes to show why UK relationship with EU is awkward.

As de Gaulle put it himself:

"England in effect is insular, she is maritime, she is linked through her exchanges, her markets, her supply lines to the most diverse and often the most distant countries; she pursues essentially industrial and commercial activities, and only slight agricultural ones. She has in all her doings very marked and very original habits and traditions. In short, the nature, the structure, the very situation (conjuncture) that are England differ profoundly from those of the continentals".

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, this thread is much more educational than every previous thread I've read on the topic (which always had lots of people complaining about Muslims and a 4th reich and not much else).

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'm comfortable with framing the EU in this way.

The thing is that original idea of EU was to create cooperation and prosperity to prevent further wars and hold Communism at bay. However the nature of the union has changed over the decades, many parties that where pro EU changed their course to much more market approach. The most obvious example is perhaps German socio-democract party that openly gave up on protecting workers rights and now they don't have more than 1/3 of the vote they used to have. In France similar story but there such party came down to something like 6% and often at the boost in nationalistic forces that are often less neoliberal in logic. This would probably happen in US as well but there is no multiparty system that would allow this to happen.


Actually not so long ago I saw may local leader of far right giving speech on public education and my though was that he put sociodemocracts to shame. Because in his opinion this is a CROATIAN education system and therefore it has to be properly funded, since it is educating the future of THIS country. This is nationalism but the problem is that this is getting job done and the person who said it is educated, probably even more than many in the mainstream. Also the candidate of far right on last election is actually the guy who restarted our local vaccine production, because if you are nationalist with a brain you know that you need you own and subsidised vaccine production if you want healthy nation (he is a doctor). Therefore now we came into strange position where good and evil are very murky and foggy categories. Some are even taking that our next presidential elections in second round will be far right vs. yugonostalgia, since pro western people with neoliberal "baggage" wouldn't make it there. What is increasingly likely since neoliberal politicians just don't have the aura of trust and accomplishments are either slim or subjective.

UK: Come and stay with me I will protect you from your rapist?
EU: OK, Cool
Half a decade later
EU: I moving out to live with my rapists cousin and brother.
UK: You what?
EU: Sorry, it is for the best.
Years later
UK: Let’s give this another go, what do you think?
EU: Sorry I am busy.
UK
years later
UK: Come on lets give it another go?
EU: Nah, sorry but no thanks... It is not you it is me.
UK:
Years later
UK: C’mon I am begging you. You can even move in with your annoying house mates?
EU: Ok, I suppose
UK: Lets get married?
EU: Maybe we should do pre-marriage counselling first?
UK:Nah, it will be OK as I have been waiting long enough plus I have managed to put up with your annoying house mates so I can put up with anything.
EU: OK
UK: I have been talking to my mum; she thinks you don't really love me and I could do better.
EU: I am not forcing you but have a think about it.
UK: Let's do it baby!
A couple of kids and years married life later.
EU: Now our kids have grown, how do you feel about adopting some kids?
UK: Ok, I suppose. If I must...
EU:
Years later
UK: I can't believe you let our adopted kids shit in my office. What have I told you about doing that. We can't take them anywhere! If you do that again I am leaving!!!
EU: Soz but they are kiddos they don't know any better. They have a traumatic start in life.
Uk: I don't care they ruined my paperwork.
Years later
Uk: I have been thinking lets have marriage counselling and have a prenuptial agreement
EU:NO, NO, NO!
A few years later.
UK: I don't know how to tell you without hurting your feelings but I have been talking to my mum again and have decided to you divorce you. Letting our adopted children shit in my office was bad enough but letting them shit in my Ferrari is the last straw!!!
EU: OK,
Months later
UK: Let's delay it. these divorce proceeding are messing up my credit rating.
EU: Ok darling whatever.
UK: We really have to get on with it.
EU: Whatever...
UK There is no way you are having my Ferrari to take our adopted children to school as part of the settlement.
EU: But... you promised!!
UK: I don't care, you either let me have the Ferrari or you can have nothing.
EU: I am never talking to you again!!!
UK: Ok, babe... whatever. Sue me!!



But that is the thing, the UK has a complete different political culture and history. The UK has never been a dictatorship in living memory nor on the side of Nazi during WWII, so the EU was never about post-WWII stability as far as the county was concerned. Unlike every other country who has ever joined the EU it was slapped in the face when had its applications to join in 1963 and 1967 vetoed by Charles de Gaulle. UK turned Charles de Gaulle from an obscure officer into de facto world leader long before he was ever elected, fostered him, protected him, and supplied him with an army during WW2; which goes to show why UK relationship with EU is awkward.

As de Gaulle put it himself:

"England in effect is insular, she is maritime, she is linked through her exchanges, her markets, her supply lines to the most diverse and often the most distant countries; she pursues essentially industrial and commercial activities, and only slight agricultural ones. She has in all her doings very marked and very original habits and traditions. In short, the nature, the structure, the very situation (conjuncture) that are England differ profoundly from those of the continentals".

I suppose that conversation is true. The thing is my culture and neighboring ones were defined by our 400+years of fights against the invading Ottomans. In general we just didn't have the time to develop more subtle ways of life. Not to mention that the Vatican organized international aid in supplies for the war effort against Muslims. Plus even before that we didn't have any stability since the collapse of the Roman empire and after that came Fascism and Communism. Geography allowed UK to have it's culture but for the most that is a luxury we couldn't get under the circumstances.


Actually our joining the EU lasted something like at least 12 painful years and there were even bigger slaps. Like forcing the processing of almost our entire war of independence high command for war crimes. I really wonder how UK would react if someone requested that the county's process of joining EU depends on processing it's WW2 generals for "senseless bombing of mainland". Actually this is exactly what got us a very developed far right scene in this country, which is currently spreading (needlessly). As a matter of fact they are accusing many of our pro-western politicians for high treason and that sticks. So I am sorry but your martyr logic on the issue just doesn't really stand in my book, there is no way you ate more shit than us on this issue.


Actually countries like UK have a long history of accusing us for being Nazis and war criminals by definition and now 1/3 of the population is directly or indirectly saying "Yes, we are Nazis!". Which is probably exactly why we or those like us don't go easy on you in Brexit.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Mike Pompeo: US will be ready with ‘pen in hand’ to sign post-Brexit trade deal

U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has warned U.K. Conservatives that Congress would block any trade deal if it was viewed as jeopardizing the Good Friday Peace agreement and rank-and-file lawmakers active on Irish issues, both Democrats and Republicans, have said they will oppose any trade deal with the U.K. if there is no Withdrawal Agreement that includes a backstop provision to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland.

This really is the hole without bottom.

 

[raskol]

Was it just anti-immigrant anti-refugee stuff or was there more to it?

Right-wing populism--the nexus of anti-immigrant sentiment, Islamophobia, national sovereignty, economic nationalism, etc.--was a key component, but there were significant business interests driving Brexit. Consider it a historical constant that every populist uprising is always monitored by a disaffected elite, temporary outsiders looking to become permanent insiders.

You see, that Polish and Slovakian labor force was getting too costly for some billionaires, who were looking to replace them with migrant labor from Pakistan and the West Indies (the British Commonwealth). For that to happen, the UK would have to disentangle itself from the EEA rules framework set up by the EU. This was redefined as the "WTO Option" among triple-digit IQ Brexiteers, emphasizing a more absolutist approach to free trade.

In effect, the anti-immigrant rubes voted for the billionaire plan to accelerate nonwhite/non-European labor migration, free trade and financial deregulation, which is the cruel fate and irony of Brexit.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Right-wing populism--the nexus of anti-immigrant sentiment, Islamophobia, national sovereignty, economic nationalism, etc.--was a key component, but there were significant business interests driving Brexit. Consider it a historical constant that every populist uprising is always monitored by a disaffected elite, temporary outsiders looking to become permanent insiders.

You see, that Polish and Slovakian labor force was getting too costly for some billionaires, who were looking to replace them with migrant labor from Pakistan and the West Indies (the British Commonwealth). For that to happen, the UK would have to disentangle itself from the EEA rules framework set up by the EU. This was redefined as the "WTO Option" among triple-digit IQ Brexiteers, emphasizing a more absolutist approach to free trade.

In effect, the anti-immigrant rubes voted for the billionaire plan to accelerate nonwhite/non-European labor migration, free trade and financial deregulation, which is the cruel fate and irony of Brexit.

Oh... I'll have to look in to that. It makes sense that it would have billionaire support. The question, then would be why would they not be happy with the trading situation with the E.U.? This would appear to answer that question, although I think some fact-checking is warranted.

 

[Red Herring]

Oh... I'll have to look in to that. It makes sense that it would have billionaire support. The question, then would be why would they not be happy with the trading situation with the E.U.? This would appear to answer that question, although I think some fact-checking is warranted.

That infamous bus with the lie about the NHS is probably emblematic. The conservative government has been selling selfimposed hard-to-swallow austerity measures that mainly serve the upper echelons (basically neo-Thatcherism) as evil foreign overlords from Brussels sucking the UK dry. That worked just fine until it worked too well and people started to want to leave.
There are strong economic and geostrategic interests at play here. The usual suspects (*cough* Russia *cough*) have an interest in weakening both the UK and the EU. The EU tends to have greater consumer protection, employee protection, etc than the UK, so if you want to drive down standards and make a fast buck with that, Leave ist an attractive option. The UK turning into a tax haven is another attractive option for those of an according income. And of course you can get crazy rich betting agains the pound and British business.

So, long story short: A handfull of greedy opportunists joined forces with hardright nostalgic nationalists, spread a bunch of lies with some illegal financial and logical help from dubious sources and managed to convince a slight majority of those who turned up voting to direct their justified frustration at neoliberal austerity measures at the wrong address.

Hate crimes have gone up. The Brexit camp has self-radicalized with dizzying speed. The economy is about to crash into a wall and the pound keeps sinking. Weird claims are being made about the "will of the people" that have little to do with the question asked in the actual referendum. The Brits now have a PM they never voted for who is considered an idiot and a clown by most of the rest of the world, including his negotiation counterparts in Brussels. Most of Europe has left all respect for the UK in the progress even though we used to adore them and consider them a role model.

Young people are angry. Educated people are angry. The Scots are angry. An the Irish..........

 

[ceecee]

That infamous bus with the lie about the NHS is probably emblematic. The conservative government has been selling selfimposed hard-to-swallow austerity measures that mainly serve the upper echelons (basically neo-Thatcherism) as evil foreign overlords from Brussels sucking the UK dry. That worked just fine until it worked too well and people started to want to leave.
There are strong economic and geostrategic interests at play here. The usual suspects (*cough* Russia *cough*) have an interest in weakening both the UK and the EU. The EU tends to have greater consumer protection, employee protection, etc than the UK, so if you want to drive down standards and make a fast buck with that, Leave ist an attractive option. The UK turning into a tax haven is another attractive option for those of an according income. And of course you can get crazy rich betting agains the pound and British business.

So, long story short: A handfull of greedy opportunists joined forces with hardright nostalgic nationalists, spread a bunch of lies with some illegal financial and logical help from dubious sources and managed to convince a slight majority of those who turned up voting to direct their justified frustration at neoliberal austerity measures at the wrong address.

Hate crimes have gone up. The Brexit camp has self-radicalized with dizzying speed. The economy is about to crash into a wall and the pound keeps sinking. Weird claims are being made about the "will of the people" that have little to do with the question asked in the actual referendum. The Brits now have a PM they never voted for who is considered an idiot and a clown by most of the rest of the world, including his negotiation counterparts in Brussels. Most of Europe has left all respect for the UK in the progress even though we used to adore them and consider them a role model.

Young people are angry. Educated people are angry. The Scots are angry. An the Irish..........

I have wondered if that wasn't the sole purpose of Brexit. Everything else was just scenery.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Anything really new in this issue ?

 

[Nicodemus]

Anything really new in this issue ?

Stupid people still stupid, just slightly better informed.

 

[Falcarius]

Anything really new in this issue ?

The government is going to ask the queen to suspend parliament and the Queen will most certainly say yes as the monarch has agreed not interfere with parliament. The government will just try to wait for the EU to back down or leave with no deal.

Parliament is on recess for summer and when it comes back then the opposition will table a no confidence vote probably on 3rd of September. At moment the leader of opposition said he would not immediately push ahead with a move to replace Mr Johnson through a vote of no confidence as the other parties do not support him as PM and also he is a somewhat closeted Eurosceptic. Corbyn will most likely get pushed into it by his party or one . If the opposition wins, then the government has two weeks to form a new government, If that fails the opposition will have chance to prove it has the confidence of the House of Parliament. If neither can do so there will do. will be a general election. It is unclear what would happen then, as the UK government has to request an extension to EU and that is impossible if there is no government since parliament will be dissolved to November!

If the government wins a no confidence vote it will get sued the shit out of but most likely it is constitution to suspend parliament. It will win cases and lose cases, side cases such as not keeping it commitments to try to get Stormont sitting again; but that will be more a side show. From September 9 until October 14 the parliament will not sit providing it is found to be constitutional. The opposition will have two week to try and block no deal but will have run out of options. It could try to pass legislation requiring new extension but the government could make the extension request but then refuse to accept any terms the EU sets for granting any Brexit extension. In this scenario the government could argue it has complied with the law, yet the UK will leave EU on 31 October by default.


In short there is a constitutional crises for the past few years over Brexit, the government is going to get sued but the country will likely leave one way or another in October. Next weeks probable vote of confidence is going to be a massive event and will most likely determine what happens going forward.