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  1. #11
    Regal Regime Tenebris's Avatar
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    Most of what is "Far Left Ideology" is just authoritarian solustions to social problems. Its called "Left" because its not unique to one political group.

    Such things include:
    - Identity politics having say
    - No regulation of migration/open borders
    - Equal outcome/affirmative action
    - White men are evil, and the cause of all bad things in the world.

    Any real Liberal would look at these with disgust, because its a giant blame game with no real solutions.
    Omnivariant

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Is that what Bezos is doing with Amazon? Bezos and other libertarians recognize the power of a competitive business model; this means lower prices, better value, and better customer service.



    Your argument is entirely hypothetical. The fact is: every privatized function of government outperforms the public version. Private schools generally outperform public schools; private hospitals outperform public ones; private construction contractors outperform public ones. For example: Celera Genomics kicked the government's ass in the race to sequence the Human Genome.



    This is cute, but no....we don't want to ban government; libertarians are not anarchists.
    The opposite is true in the UK, at least in terms of transport and utilities.

    UK water and UK railtrack and the trains charge excessive prices, make super normal profits and still require massive subsidies from the UK taxpayer. CEOs receive huge bonuses often because they secure further subsidy rather than provide efficient and equitable services to the public and profit to shareholders. In fact the assumption that private ownership will out perform publicly owned firms is more of a hypothetical argument at this point, the evidence is long since past that anyone could argue that privatisation automatically produced the desired results.

    Another example could the the performance of private security firms, the UK conservative government wanted to use G4S to showcase the idea of private out performing public services during the London Olympics, and avoid costs which would require deficit borrowing or tax rises, but in the end they had call upon the standing army to perform the duty of the police during the events. That's pretty awful.

    That's all quite apart from questions about libertarianism or capitalism or socialism. Monopolies will behave in certain ways and even Adam Smith was able to admit so in his books.

    Those are market failures, now, you can accept that those are just a fact of life and that even at its best the self-regulatory mechanism of the market fails, people should adjust down their expectations and accept its an imperfect world and alternatives are worse but that's not the argument I usually hear from libertarians which often read like utopianism of the worst sort.

    Now, public ownership has its own failings and problems, its not perfect either, the pursuit of perfection is a bad idea as the perfect is the enemy of the merely good or satisfactory or good enough but they are nicer problems to have than those that are associated with the pursuit of utopia of complete privatisation.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post

    This is cute, but no....we don't want to ban government; libertarians are not anarchists.
    Both Libertarians and Anarchists want to ban government. Anarchists oppose private property. Libertarians do not oppose private property.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1 View Post
    Both Anarchists and Libertarians want to ban government. Anarchists oppose private property. Libertarians do not oppose private property.
    Its sometimes a matter of semantics.

    Some libertarians just want to privatise the government, enthralled by the power of money and all, they dont like the democratic state's capacity to curb it.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its sometimes a matter of semantics.

    Some libertarians just want to privatise the government, enthralled by the power of money and all, they dont like the democratic state's capacity to curb it.
    That sounds Oligarchic; libertarianism without the velvet glove.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1 View Post
    That sounds Oligarchic; libertarianism without the velvet glove.
    Ha! Velvet glove? Libertarians?!

    These are the same people who bankrolled Pinochet.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Ha! Velvet glove? Libertarians?!

    These are the same people who bankrolled Pinochet.
    "Velvet Glove" as in Libertarianism presents itself as being about individual rights but in practice/reality, would function like an Oligarchy....imo
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  8. #18
    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    UK water and UK railtrack and the trains charge excessive prices, make super normal profits and still require massive subsidies from the UK taxpayer.
    That's the problem. You can't have the tax payer prop up bad business models; you have to let them fail and go out of business. Again, this is the fault of the government. They shouldn't be in the business of supporting one business over another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1
    Both Libertarians and Anarchists want to ban government.
    The US Constitution is a libertarian document; you're the only person who thinks we want to ban government.
    Saw a giant billboard today for the "Picard" movie; at this point, they probably should've just rebooted the entire franchise or not made the film at all. Stewart is getting up there in age.
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  9. #19
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    Far Left ideology is Marxism-Leninism which is based on class warfare. Today class warfare is not pc, so we call it Identity Politics, which is the same old Marxism-Leninism, but sounds better and has better optics.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That's the problem. You can't have the tax payer prop up bad business models; you have to let them fail and go out of business. Again, this is the fault of the government. They shouldn't be in the business of supporting one business over another.



    The US Constitution is a libertarian document; you're the only person who thinks we want to ban government.
    I'm pretty sure that too big to fail and its imitators wasnt invented by the state, I'd say that the sort of business practices and culture that I'm describing is asking for the service to just be taken into public ownership. I dont have a preference for ownership either way if I'm frank and I can envisage scenarios in which privatisation makes sense too but excluding one on ideological grounds isnt a great idea. Again, like I said before, I dont think this has anything to do with socialism, capitalism anything else. Its just good or bad policy in a flexible political economy.

    Libertarians are anti-gov Tellenbach, that's what I think is being talked about, though I know what you mean. Thoreau said unlike the no government men he asked first for good government and it probably would sum up the libertarian position. I just think its inflexible and ideologically entrenched, like state socialism was once upon a time, still is sometimes, in some parts of the world.

    I dont think libertarians are the devil, they probably are the sorts of people who'd be tricked into a contract with the devil, you dont think that's what the constitution is?

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