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  1. #21
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Crunch View Post
    I don't see much benefit to me individually to accept the label. The movement might benefit from stamping it on me, so that I'd be supporting whatever it might be that they're marching for. Yesterday, they were protesting the defunding of Planned Parenthood. I think PP can probably get by without government funding.
    I am really glad you posted this because it made me realize I know NOTHING about US Planned Parenthood. I am going to make a thread, let me know if you find it as fascinating as I did
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  2. #22
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Will reply in more detail later, but for the moment:

    The judgement seems to be: If you are not a Feminist = You are an Anti-Feminist.
    The reason for this defensive response is that the negative stigma behind the word "feminist" is usually based on misleading information, lack of information, or flat-out misinformation -- and if someone decides that they don't want to be called a feminist based on that, then they either believe the lies, or are refusing to fight against them. Meaning, they are complicit in those lies.

    That being said: while I do see where they were coming from, and why they might be on the defensive from the get-go, I'm not at all okay with the treatment you've received based on this. It sounds like people were incredibly and inexcusably rude, hostile, and unfair to you in the past.
    ”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”

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  3. #23
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Will reply in more detail later, but for the moment:


    The reason for this defensive response is that the negative stigma behind the word "feminist" is usually based on misleading information, lack of information, or flat-out misinformation -- and if someone decides that they don't want to be called a feminist based on that, then they either believe the lies, or are refusing to fight against them. Meaning, they are complicit in those lies.

    That being said: while I do see where they were coming from, and why they might be on the defensive from the get-go, I'm not at all okay with the treatment you've received based on this. It sounds like people were incredibly and inexcusably rude, hostile, and unfair to you in the past.
    I appreciate your perspective on that.

    Yes, I didn't feel the reaction was warranted because I try to be a fairly reasonable person.

    I am thinking on this thread. Weighing where personal conviction and social responsibility meet and meld. Weighing personal steadfastness against the need to engage with others in a productive way. It's not the first time I have come across this and will likely continue to deal with it in an ongoing way.

    I'm grateful for the open dialogue and will continue to think on things and consider what has been put forth
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  4. #24
    Let me help u with this geedoenfj's Avatar
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    An opinion from a different place of the world which still have a lot of issues to work on regarding human rights in general, and women's rights in specific..
    I might identify as feminist for some of their opinions but disagree with others, some of them take it to the extreme with ideas like women are superior to men, and some hate statements against men, and not empathizing with an abused woman or appreciate her sacrifices for her family because she's (weak) to not put her own personal benefit over the benefit of her family, if that is called feminism in their dictionary, I call it (selfishness) in my dictionary, these kind of ideas are causing more damage to the women who are the most in need for those rights, I see it only justifies more injustice against women instead of empowering them..
    I consider myself a human rights supporter, a family stability supporter, feminism might fall somewhere within those concepts.
    Don't climb mountains so that people can see you. Climb mountains so that you can see the world.



    6w7 > 1w2 > 2w3

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  5. #25
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedoenfj View Post
    An opinion from a different place of the world which still have a lot of issues to work on regarding human rights in general, and women's rights in specific..
    I might identify as feminist for some of their opinions but disagree with others, some of them take it to the extreme with ideas like women are superior to men, and some hate statements against men, and not empathizing with an abused woman or appreciate her sacrifices for her family because she's (weak) to not put her own personal benefit over the benefit of her family, if that is called feminism in their dictionary, I call it (selfishness) in my dictionary, these kind of ideas are causing more damage to the women who are the most in need for those rights, I see it only justifies more injustice against women instead of empowering them..
    I consider myself a human rights supporter, a family stability supporter, feminism might fall somewhere within those concepts.
    A "Family Stability Supporter". Nice!

    I think I am one too Geedo. I just had never thought to put a name to it

    I enjoyed your post. A lot.
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  6. #26
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    @Cloudpatrol

    Can you expand on how you see "fair treatment" (or the fight for fair treatment) as being different or distinct from "equal treatment" and the fight for that?

    I've seen you make this distinction before and am curious to why you see fairness as a better alternative than a call for equality.

    Do you think fairness can open up doors for women in terms of furthering opportunities in better ways than, say, calling for equality can? If so, how do you see that occuring?

    Or do you think there isn't any difference in real world application between either "call"?
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  7. #27
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    That's interesting @anticlimactic. Thanks for your response.

    What appeals to you about Universalism? I would like to know more from people who actually identify with the philosophy.
    Universalism appeals to me in a number of different ways. It has a very elegant mathematical form which meshes perfectly with it's content- specifically, it is a philosophy about isomorphisms while also being isomorphic in its shape. It mirrors the form of human intelligence (our most noble virtue as a species) by pulling successful patterns that are the same from multiple smaller contexts and filing them accordingly based on merit. It's inclusionary/exclusionary nature follows not labels, but empirical evidence of success, allowing it to separate the good from the bad in any philosophy- including feminism. It exists on a level above most other philosophies in this regard.

    So when ideologies go bad, the way feminism has, universalism can take from it what was good and let it die off- preserving the pearl and leaving the shell the dissolve so to speak. A far better and more efficient approach than trying to hold on to the bad because you ignorantly think it can't be separated from the good.
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  8. #28
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Honestly @EJCC, the only time I have the desire to find a new word is when people INSIST I AM a feminist. It's only when others say "well, yes you are one" that I wish there was another term(s) more relevant to the variety of ideals that presently exist.


    Society will determine if the word feminism stays relevant, not me. That’s as it should be.

    ...

    This section is very well written and succinct. Still, the bolded blue offers MANY shades and ideologies in 4 simple paragraphs. Huge divergences of ideology that other Feminists will insist are legitimate, even if you don't personally share them. @Coriolis in your recent post you said that you don't find people confused when you say you are a Feminist. This HUGELY surprises me, as I encounter a lot of confusion from people when we try to arrive at a shared definition. (Yes, these are intelligent people, smile)

    I care less about what things are called and more about: people with different views uniting to combat the moral judgments, injustices and lies.
    I never find confusion in real life -- same as Coriolis. Of course, now that I think about it, I rarely have to tell people that I'm a feminist, because I'd like to think that my beliefs on the matter are lived out in actions as much as they are in words. My personality, philosophy, and modus operandi all suggest feminism by the definition I embrace. Only when someone doesn't seem to understand what feminism is, do I say that I am one -- so that my words and deeds will be, in the future, associated with that term.

    (Whether I can live out intersectional feminism is something else entirely, because that's hard as hell to do. We all have our blind spots and no one is perfect. But I do try, privileges notwithstanding.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Candidly, I don’t enjoy that. And, it makes me wonder about alienating other people (who care more about ‘belonging’ in life, than I do) who could actually be valuable fellow fighters.
    This is a problem in intersectional feminism, definitely, as well as among young liberals overall. I hate everything about it and am actively trying to figure out, within my community, how to eliminate the culture of shaming that seems to have erupted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    We are open to new terms for sexual orientation that describe variations of desire or attraction.
    I mean... sort of. There's two spheres: the people who understand and accept the new terms as they arise, and the people who really, really don't -- who see even the older terms, like transgender, as made-up and unacceptable. (Those folks are sometimes feminists but rarely intersectional feminists.) I encounter more people who aren't open to new terms, than I encounter people who wouldn't describe themselves as feminists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    I think this may in a small way be 'type related'. It is physically repugnant for me to identify as "belonging" to something I am not 100% in line with. I am not overly fond of the idea of belonging to things to begin with. I feel almost unclean or compromised if I am an actual identified member of something that doesn't accurately reflect my beliefs. But, I am eager to work with people when we have common interest and have never had a problem doing so.
    This makes a lot of sense. I've had conflict with NF friends because of this, as well. I, on the other hand, am very much in the school of thought that the only way to change an organization you disagree with is from within.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    So, if I was to say I am a feminist according to the Dictionary definition: what motivates my mind and heart would not be represented accurately.
    I'm also curious to hear more about what you mean by "fair treatment" as it relates to men and women.
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  9. #29
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think it is unfortunate but the word feminism has developed a negative connotation because of the small segment of the population that has embraced a negative orientation towards men. It is misandry really. It was originally about equality and that was good. Something somewhere along the way went awry. The spirit of what feminism stands for is good. I'm saddened to see that ruined.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Short answer: It's hard to talk about feminism without talking about the perceived loadedness of the word "feminism". Nothing about the book in the OP resonates with how I experience feminism. Nothing about how I experience feminism seems like misandry. Feminism, to me*, is about women being considered people to the same extent that men are. Women are people, men are people, and they should all be treated as such.

    The platform of the Womens March on Washington, which I attended today, sums it up well. Women's rights are human rights.


    *keeping in mind that there are many schools of thought re feminism and I am not a scholar in this area
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am a feminist (see definition below), and feel no shame in it either. I don't, however, feel solidarity with women simply because they are women. I feel solidarity with people who share my values and work to promote them, be they female or male. Usually when I see "sisterhood" in a context broader than actual family relationship, it references a basket of interests, abilities, and preferences that I don't share. Nothing wrong with what's in that basket or those who enjoy it. It just doesn't describe me as a woman or as a human...
    I'm on board with these comments. I maintain the definition feminist, and claim to be one because if all the reasonable people jump ship, it will set us back in society. I care about equality, and so am continually open to re-balancing the issues and approach for feminism because it is human nature to overcompensate, and yes, that can happen with this movement as well. My impression is that even the ways that men are discriminated against in society is an indirect result of women being discriminated against. Power imbalances produce further imbalances because there is a natural inclination for people to regain power lost. By keeping one group pressed down, you actually lose some of your own power in other ways. In the most extreme cases of female suppression, when they don't have any avenues to regain power, then the next step is for men to dominate each other, as we see in some of the more extreme societies. Feminism is ultimately about fairness and equality for all people, and I don't want to let that idea die out.
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  10. #30
    Let me help u with this geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    A "Family Stability Supporter". Nice!

    I think I am one too Geedo. I just had never thought to put a name to it

    I enjoyed your post. A lot.
    Well yeah, I wrote a post earlier about this in another feminism thread, others might see a male and female, but I see the male and female are a (family), that's what life is all about, each individual of this family has different struggles in life, each one of them should eventually learn to take care of themselves, but each one of them has the right to be taken care of by others too, each has the right of equal opportunity in life..
    I would have more respect to a woman taking care of her children and make them the best they can be than a woman who's irresponsible towards her children, negligent, but successful in her career, I would never take that she's a womens' right advocate, she already didn't give her children their rights as a mother, it doesn't make her entitled to speak about any other rights, just my opinion..
    Don't climb mountains so that people can see you. Climb mountains so that you can see the world.



    6w7 > 1w2 > 2w3

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