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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Hmmm, I didn't know that.

    That really resonates with me. I think if the perceptions was more "differences are intriguing" than "differences are cause for alarm or distrust" the potency of the actual word "racism" would be diluted.
    When it comes to the bottom-line, the Japanese aren't afraid of profiling.
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  2. #22
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S16M4 View Post
    When it comes to the bottom-line, the Japanese aren't afraid of profiling.
    I was in Japan pretty recently and found prejudices alive and well on both sides (theirs/mine). But, it wasn't anything that took away enjoyment of the trip or making mutual friendships and laughing over our differences.

    I have appreciated both your (and @TSDesigner's) contributions. More than general racism (others), I was speaking about whether each of us personally recognizes prejudices within OURselves... If we feel uncomfortable having that kind of discussion?

  3. #23
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Have your explored or are you familiar with is usually given as to why there are those who believe only whites can be racist?
    I feel I am hugely ignorant in these regards. Maybe still a little naive. So, I have explored but think I have far to go.

    Honestly, it’s only in the past several years I have felt comfortable to discuss this kind of stuff with my friends from other cultures/races. Even then, there are friend’s who don’t want to dip a toe in.

    I am not sure if this is what you meant by your first question, but I will provide more background: I was raised by caucasian parent’s who love other cultures. We ate at ‘ethnic’ restaurants long before that was ‘cool’. We used chopsticks at home as much as other utensils. My Brother declared at age 8 that he wanted to marry a wife from Asia and never wavered on that - to my Parent’s delight. We travelled from Canada into the ‘deep south’ and made friends with everyone we came across. When we went to other places, my parents tried to act more as ‘temporary visitors to the native land’ than as ‘tourists’.

    So, I was almost unaware of racism until Junior High school.


    I had few people from other races in school. I regularly ‘rescued’ a boy from India from beatings and sought out friendship with a couple girl’s from Korea and China who were often mocked. They never let on their own cultures had any antipathy.


    So, with my own eyes, I only ‘witnessed’ racism from whites for a good portion of my life.


    I don’t remember hearing racism from anyone other than caucasian’s in entertainment or media, until I was older. And even then, it was mostly from comedians.


    Those are the reasons I personally had that naivety {of shock that people other than whites were racist and TOWARDS whites, laugh}.


    I can’t speak for other’s of why that belief exists, but would love more insight from anyone who can provide it.


    When my social group started to expand I noticed good-natured ribbing towards white people and eventually friends let me in to the fact that more serious racism is rampant across the board. My SIL has explained a lot to me about how white people are viewed in Asia. From the resentment…to the ‘allure’ of marrying white.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Or how some parse the difference between racism and prejudice?
    Your second question is more difficult to answer. I am aware of how some do, but think that I likely am not aware of the ‘meat’ of the issue. This is because I find it challenging to even have open discussions with people on the topic.

    ie. I have one group of girl friends who hail from all parts of the world and are varying shades of gorgeous. We can talk really openly. I feel comfortable telling them how MAC make-up pigments make me wish I had beautiful dark skin. Or that I envy natural hair afro’s they have. Or them tease me when I am shocked they say that ‘their families do indeed LOVE fried chicken, and that isn’t a stereotype’. We joke about who is more tan in the summer. We often talk about prejudice versus racism.

    But, I have another group of friends from all over the world that I do not have that openness re: race with. With them, I am nervous of mis-stepping and they are nervous of being taken advantage of. So, they won’t tell me the racism or prejudices native to their homes for fear of being further maligned. And, I don’t bring topics up because I don’t want them to feel I don’t view them as equal.

    I mean we have great friendships, but this is how I perceive the underlying cause of why we avoid talking deeply/real about prejudice or race.


    It’s actually a bit hard for me to even share all of this openly because it feels embarrassing.


    But, I value the open discussion so am putting it out there.


    Prejudice is defined as a preconceived opinion not based on actual experience. Or a bias. I actually think a lot of the opinions we have result from experiences. That our REACTIONS are based on personal bias or preference. That is why I said every person is racist (not prejudiced).


    @uumlau and @Coriolis have really expressed better the sense of what I was (clumsily) putting forth. That these inherent prejudices we have produce racism but that it is better talked about in the open and not kept within the isolated groups. That admitting in-group preferences shouldn’t automatically be considered a sin - especially if it leads to understanding. But, that preferences also should NOT be used to excuse unfair treatment and are best ‘taken apart’ at an individual level.


    This is challenging when the average person recoils from the very idea that they could be racist in any way.


    I don’t know if I have answered your questions properly? I am interested and open to enlightenment in this area!
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  4. #24
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    Any conversation about racism needs to delve into categorization, stereotyping, statistical analysis, etc. Without those discussions its hard to really differentiate racism vs stereotype vs probability. Its also only something you can know about yourself at a deeper level not just some quick judgement based off of some externally viewed action.
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  5. #25
    Unicorn in disguise Lord Lavender's Avatar
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    Lets face it without racism of some degree no one would survive. We are racist even at a cellular level as our bodies do not accept bacteria and viruses and looking at the bigger picture we are all prejudiced to some degree but it is expressed in different ways. I agree that i feel more at ease when I can talk freely about different races and cultures without having to walk on egg shells as one of the biggest wonders in the world is the diversity of humankind and the world would be a much duller place if everyone refused to embrace that diversity.
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  6. #26
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    This about sums it up.

  7. #27
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    How the hell can racism be considered a white-only thing!? I guess you can make the argument that all racism against white folks is simply retribution for whites' racism, and so it doesn't count as racism, but.. really??

    Lots of black folks refused to come to my wedding because it was interracial. Plenty of black folks have tried to "steal" my wife in, say, clubs with the intent of hooking up and the like, because "white dudes don't count" or something to that effect. Granted, we both laugh that sort of shit off, whether it's from white people or black people. It has zero effect on us. But to say that it isn't there is absolute bullshit.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bush Did 9/11 View Post
    How the hell can racism be considered a white-only thing!? I guess you can make the argument that all racism against white folks is simply retribution for whites' racism, and so it doesn't count as racism, but.. really??

    Lots of black folks refused to come to my wedding because it was interracial. Plenty of black folks have tried to "steal" my wife in, say, clubs with the intent of hooking up and the like, because "white dudes don't count" or something to that effect. Granted, we both laugh that sort of shit off, whether it's from white people or black people. It has zero effect on us. But to say that it isn't there is absolute bullshit.


    There is more than one expression of racism/prejudice. It's pretty multi-faceted, unfortunately.

    Are we all racist in the sense @Cloudpatrol says? I don't know. Cloudpatrol, you described curiosity and openness to learning of different cultures.

    I see that as the opposite of racist/predjudice. I think. This thread is confusing the more I think about it. I need a dictionary.

    I see racism as hard to separate from ideas about superiority/inferiority.

    What some cultures do, I can say I don't agree with. I can oppose. I don't consider that racist (but I guess this makes me racist? So be it) at the same time, I can do that without saying "I'm better" because I can provide reasoning as to why or why that action, even from a cultural standpoint, shouldn't take place. (i.e. I'm criticizing the action, not the people themselves)

    So if we are all racist then ok. We still need to determine what those accepted levels should be. It doesn't negate the negative consequences of it.
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  9. #29
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bush Did 9/11 View Post
    How the hell can racism be considered a white-only thing!? I guess you can make the argument that all racism against white folks is simply retribution for whites' racism, and so it doesn't count as racism, but.. really??

    Lots of black folks refused to come to my wedding because it was interracial. Plenty of black folks have tried to "steal" my wife in, say, clubs with the intent of hooking up and the like, because "white dudes don't count" or something to that effect. Granted, we both laugh that sort of shit off, whether it's from white people or black people. It has zero effect on us. But to say that it isn't there is absolute bullshit.
    I hope I made it clear that my thinking "only whites are racist" was subconscious and due to ignorance on my part. I grew up in the middle of the country where (until more recently) the diversity was mostly European and other colours of skin were not prevalent. I was naive and now laugh at () the fact I ever thought this.



    @MDP2525 I don't think being open or curious about cultures is racist in any way. I do think that some people are overtly racist but with most of us the in-group preferences or level of comfort and familiarity are more subtle. I don't think one has to view another as inferior to be racist to an extent.

    The Dictionary reference I quoted in the OP says that the adjective definition can mean showing or having the belief that one race is superior. I don't think this is always EVIL in intent.

    For example, I just wrote another post re: learning about Koteka. Here is a pic:



    Honestly, my first thoughts upon seeing that were: "Wow, that is insane. I definitely think the way men dress where I live is superior. Why in the world would someone make that sartorial choice?"

    Someone could argue that I was making cultural judgments but the practice is employed largely by a common race of people. When I started to learn about the reasons behind it, I grew in appreciation and understanding.

    My initial reaction was pretty racist I think. But, not with any 'white supremacy' intent. Just a reaction to something different than myself or my accustomed associates.



    I agree SO much with the sentiment of @Wind Up Rex above: that we are always more similar -as humanity - than different. It just takes erasing ignorance (and increasing our knowledge) to get there.


    I don't feel very equipped to speak about racism politically because I am a pretty idealistic or non-experienced person in that sense. It's why I made a thread about personal accountability or reasoning (cuz I can only speak to my own experience with any strength) and I think the personal gets overlooked a lot for 'blaming of general'. If everyone took personal stock, the general would look different

    But, I DO like the overall discussion that is taking place here, a lot!

  10. #30
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    @Wind Up Rex, I really appreciate your post. I have read it over several times and will do so again.

    My first impression: I think that it is impossible (& unwise) for me to speak to the U.S. because I haven't experienced it as a resident and I do see it is very different from Canada when it comes to race relations.

    I feel like that sounds like an excuse but it is true. I will try to educate myself more so that I can understand more.



    I don't love the cartoon.

    I am sure the dynamic illustrated in the comic exists. My preference would be to have both characters as stick people who are not represented by gender or color. Because I think people of all sorts can feel entitled or can be disenfranchised. It isn't that the cartoon isn't valid. I just think it expresses one specific message when it could speak to MANY people's experience.

    I believe with all my mind and heart that general problems won't be solved by reaching general conclusions:
    One person feels the curriculum caters to girls. Another believes boy's are viewed as more capable. Another interprets that as: more is asked of boy's in responsibility. The next person thinks whites receive more privileges. Someone else thinks non-whites are given extra's to level the playing field. And, on and on. And, everyone is too riled up on behalf of their own beliefs to examine that of the other.

    I don't love the idea of perpetuating US versus THEM thinking.


    I DO love what you said here:

    I think often that both sides are coming from the perspective that they’re seeing the same things, and so the disconnect in terms of the conclusions being drawn by the other side are absolutely mystifying.
    This is often seen on the forum on so many topics! Two people will essentially be saying the same thing but because of an approach from different perspective, a multi-page argument will ensue. The two participators are too "IN IT" to see the agreement and parallels clear to observers.



    This is great and is much of why I made the thread:

    The other issue, from what I can tell, is that the fear of being labeled racist and the censure that goes with it is something that anyone would feel acutely. I think white people tend to take being called “racist” as just being dismissed out and out as a hateful, terrible person. When, coming from the other side, I think it’s a more nuanced thing for people of color. We take for granted that most white people that we deal with (especially in the South) probably believe a couple of things that would get side eye from us, but unless someone is just utterly malignant it’s not exactly something we hold against someone whose white. Or at least I don’t. Some POCs are a lot more militant on this than I am, but for the most part, I think everyone recognizes that race is massively complicated and that we’re all bound to fuck it up sometimes.
    I think the more leeway we can give each other (in making 'faux pas' OR in being militant) while trying to understand that the other party doesn't necessarily have bad intent: the more progress we will unitedly make.

    I say that while being 100% aware that I had the luxury described above, in not having to deal with racism at all until high school. That fact is not fair.


    One of my earliest life memories is my Dad explaining that life would NOT be fair: but it would be great.



    Sure, there’s some tendency in all people to be fearful of the unknown, but I don’t think there’s anything natural about racial division in our country as such. Many of those were engineered fairly deliberately.
    This saddens me more than I can express. Why people would use power and responsibility to sow disaccord or discontent, will be an eternal wonderment to me!?! Even if they think in the moment, it serves their interests best. That reasoning is so short-sighted, if not morally bankrupt.

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