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Thread: Free Speech?

  1. #1
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Default Free Speech?





    I was going to post a funny gif in a couple threads dealing with 'the validity of MBTI' but by the time I returned... the tenor of conversation had changed. My attention got diverted by the reasonings taking place and what was presented as free speech.

    I remember sometimes at recess, when one kid didn't like what the other would say the response would be "It's a free world. It's my RIGHT to say that" .


    I love freedom of speech. Literally. When you travel to other parts of the world you see it's something easy to take for granted in Western Countries. People literally died for our ability to say and think what we wish. People are still dying for this right, in some area's of the globe.


    What is free speech to you? Where YOU live?


    -What should it be applied to? ANYthing? If someone attacks someone's character, should that fall under the umbrella of free speech?


    -Do you think the concept of freedom of speech is ever misapplied online or in politics?


    -Do you think free speech is ever used as a 'get out of jail free card' for being an donkey?


    -Would you rather use free speech (or see it used) to: unite or rile up? To 'teach people lessons' or 'relate to others'? Both? What has been effective in your experience?

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    Yeah, about that...

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ensorship.html



    What is free speech to you? Where YOU live?

    We used to have a very corrupt government up to the 2000's where we live, we had journalists disappear after writing bad things about the leaders and the government. Which is why I am very unhappy about any form of censorship. Bad ideas die out on their own and don't need anybody to intervene. Public debate is the best sanitizer. Censorship is not.

    -What should it be applied to? ANYthing? If someone attacks someone's character, should that fall under the umbrella of free speech?

    People are the sum of their choices. If someone wants to be fat and stupid, they can be fat and stupid. But we get to criticize their fatness and stupidity. If you don't get to criticize, how do you know what's good or bad, or socially accepted? The narrative that "free speech =/= hate speech" is something that you will hear a lot from the Buzzfeed parasites. Hate speech is encouraging violent behavior on another party. Saying that someone sucks isn't really hate speech, try as much as Anita Sarkeesian can at the UN, that doesn't work. If you can't criticize someone, then I guess "Hitler did nothing wrong"? Can you imagine how non constructive is such a way of handling speech?

    -Do you think the concept of freedom of speech is ever misapplied online or in politics?

    I think you should allow people say what ever they want. Policing thoughts is an Orwellian thing. You can ban ideologies (ahem, looking at some religions) but not what people think. If religion is an ideology, can you tell me, in the things that they share in common, what is the difference between Fascism and Islam? I am not talking about their specifics. Look at the two as ideologies, what they promote and the effect on the world. Why is one banned and the other not? Is this a form of double think?

    -Do you think free speech is ever used as a 'get out of jail free card' for being an donkey?

    Situation 1: Mike says something dumb. His colleagues laugh at him and say "Mike, you sure are dumb". People find out about this and decide that indeed, Mike was dumb. They also join the club and say "Mike is dumb".

    Situation 2: Mike says something that his colleagues don't agree because they don't like what he said. His colleagues laugh at him and say "Mike, you sure are dumb". People find out about this and decide that Mike wasn't dumb, but that actually his colleagues were dumb. So they actually say that his colleagues are dumb.

    You see, public space is the sanitizer. People aren't dumb. If something is not true, or an idea is bad, the open discussion will bring out the truth. No, being a donkey gets you recognized as being a donkey. Being perceived as a donkey, or being called a donkey for stating something that is true but offensive, is different. Let the public discuss and they will be able to determine if you are a donkey or if you said something that is valid, even if hurtful.

    -Would you rather use free speech (or see it used) to: unite or rile up? To 'teach people lessons' or 'relate to others'? Both? What has been effective in your experience?

    I like free speech that, much like science, tries to challenge the status quo. If the ideas are bad, they will die out, rejected by society. Censorship, virtue signaling, propaganda (here's looking at you Feminism, SJW and BLM) are not methods of promoting free speech.

    Free speech is nothing if not free. If you hear someone say "I am for free speech" and then they include the word "but", then be assured, they are definitely NOT for free speech. Free speech in its true form has no "but".
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  3. #3
    c'est la vie Obfuscate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    I was going to post a funny gif in a couple threads dealing with 'the validity of MBTI' but by the time I returned... the tenor of conversation had changed. My attention got diverted by the reasonings taking place and what was presented as free speech.
    i like funny things, which gif was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    What is free speech to you? Where YOU live?
    it is essential... i live in the united states...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    -What should it be applied to? ANYthing? If someone attacks someone's character, should that fall under the umbrella of free speech?
    free speech should i apply to Everything.

    i could give my reasons, but this video from an oxford debate does so eloquently (i don't have the energy to do so myself currently)...



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    -Do you think the concept of freedom of speech is ever misapplied online or in politics?
    the concept? sure, people misunderstand, misrepresent, and/or misuse nearly any concept (in nearly any context) if you have a large enough sample of them to draw upon... if you take a quick look around you this should appear self evident...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    -Do you think free speech is ever used as a 'get out of jail free card' for being an donkey?


    yes, and i am glad that they do... it is convenient when people i would rather not associate with identify themselves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    -Would you rather use free speech (or see it used) to: unite or rile up? To 'teach people lessons' or 'relate to others'? Both? What has been effective in your experience?
    no, no, and no... i prefer to use free speech to educate and elucidate (or sometimes obfuscate)... how people choose to react to me is their problem... i most often frame my words kindly and inoffensively, but if i have a message that would be better communicated in a harsh or crude way i want the freedom to do so...

    --------------

    when i was in highschool i had a button that said "fuck censorship"... i was confronted by a teacher... he said if i merely taped over the word fuck i could keep my button... i told him that defeated the purpose of the button, and had a small debate with him over the subject... in the end i was able to keep my button...
    " 'Cause life's a game, life's a joke
    Fuck it, why not go for broke?
    Trade in all your chips and learn how to be free
    Why abstain? Why jump in line?
    We're all living on borrowed time
    So do what you like
    And we'll like what you do when you do it
    And if they don't that's fine
    Fuck 'em!"

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    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    There are a couple of aspects of free speech which Falcarius finds interesting:

    1) When does free speech become harassment/hate speech?

    For example, is it allowable to shout racist abuse at someone, or are they only allowed to have that view as long as they do not say it in font of people who may get offended, or can they have that point of view and voice their opinion in public as long they do not purposefully provoke others? What about Charlie Hebdo; was it inciting others?

    2) Are companies allowed to discriminate with who they trade with?

    For example, in the country Falcarius lives there was a well known legal case involving a couple who owned a small bed and breakfast which they lived in as well, who turned away a couple when they found out they were gay, since the owners thought it was against their religion to be homosexual.

    There is also a current case involving Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with Bernie and Ernie and pro-gay marriage slogan.

    Should those business have the right to discriminate on free speech grounds? And if not, then why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    What is free speech to you? Where YOU live?
    Mh. Difficult. I think freedom of speech is the characteristic of a society in which one can express oneself freely without feeling threatened or having consequences (like for example, in the last dictatorship of my country, it was advisable to avoid talking about socialist topics (or proclaiming yourself from the left), studying liberal arts, being a man with long hair and beard, etc). Obviously this freedom of speech, in my view, has to be related to respect. There's a difference between the ethics of ideas and actions. I'll try to explain myself, with an example, of course:

    A certain person hates gay people. Has he the right to think it? Yes. Has he the right to say out loud to say: "I hate gay people"? Yes. Has he the right to actively berate, humiliate, bully someone because they are gay or they don't support his idea? No. Has he the right to move people with his speech into a campaign that promotes psychological and physical violence towards gay people? No.

    There's a difference between saying "it is my opinion that..." and leaving it there, and saying that your opinion is a truth. It is YOUR truth and you can't expect others to agree with it.

    I love freedom of speech too, but I believe it has 2 major problems:

    1) sometimes it's an excuse to get away with violence (you express your opinion, another person says you're wrong/stupid/evil/heretic for believing that, and when you tell them that they're restricting your right to say your opinion, and they tell you you're restricting them/you're too weak to accept the truth/you say that because you have no arguments).

    2) sometimes, this violence I just mentioned becomes a tool to inhibit people. Example, my country with the last president. The country got divided in two, the ones who followed her and the ones who hated her. Every time an "opponent" opened their mouths to say something, even as silly as "I like strawberry yoghurt", a hoard of followers, knowing that this person didn't agree with them politically, would destroy them saying things like (I'm making up the example) the guy was shoving his incomes (possibility of buying strawberry yoghurt) on the faces of the poor. Then no one wants to talk about yoghurt anymore. All the people that were opposed to the president were constantly bullied, until they stopped talking about it. Luckily in my country voting is mandatory. Imagine that in a country in which voting is not mandatory. Opponents will get tired of politics (in my country's case, every word you said lead to talk about the president's magnificence and how her political opponent was a reincarnation of Hitler) and stop caring about it, not going to vote.

    In sum, it's kind of a paradox, because apparently in most cases, online or in real life, freedom of speech is one-way street, and it tends to serve as a tool for invalidating others' opinion by telling them they're invalidating your right to treat them like crap.

    Having said that, and leaving the political context aside, Argentina is a country full of people that are veeeery passionate about everything, and since the last dictatorship (1976-83), which included a lamentable war nobody wanted to fight, people are not willing to shut up. Politician is not doing his work right? Pots and pans and wooden spoons to the parks, let's make noise. More mines in the West or not? Let's make petitions? Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo? Brothers stop talking to each other. The yerba of the mate should be laid flat or making a little mountain? Let's settle this with a duel. Eeeeeeeveryone has an opinion for everything and nothing here is taboo. Last week in the I sort of befriended a tranny prostitute who had a yellow wig, beard and hair in... his? stomach, after he started telling me about the "little problem" of his last client. Your male friends give you advice about your period. I think it's cool.

    -What should it be applied to? ANYthing? If someone attacks someone's character, should that fall under the umbrella of free speech?
    As I mentioned before, I think an idea itself isn't moral/immoral. The way one acts upon them is. Attempts to intimidate, attack, invalidate, ad hominem attacks (to the person who expresses themselves instead of to the idea per se) are reasons for duct tape on the mouth. To me. I get pretty angry when people attack things just because they don't match what they feel.

    Also online debates are different from tête-à-tête ones. If I get angry with someone, you can let telling someone they're stupid pass. In a comunity in which probably nobody knows the other in real life, in which there are certain codes to make conversations fluid and encourage "healthy" debates in which it's important to see different points of view and LEARNING something from another person, being respectful is really important.


    -Do you think the concept of freedom of speech is ever misapplied online or in politics?
    Yes, I replied this somewhere above. But, when putting the two spheres together, I do have something else to add: in forums about politics, lots of interesting topics are discussed and I feel it really discourages most users from participating because there's ZERO tolerance, and instead of reading a debate in which both parties talk about their opinions, bring up their fav politician's pros and acknowledge their cons, the only thing I imagine is apes throwing feces at each other. I participate in a thread that it's about... I don't know, favourite movies or random stuff, and at the end of the day, I've learnt something new, I made a new friend, I have more movies I want to watch, I have a debate about movie directors or German philosophers. I feel entering a debate on politics is basically useless because people, at the ened of the day, they end up thinking and knowing EXACTLY the same things they did when they woke up.

    i don't know, to me it's a big effort to interact with people. My motivation is using my conversations as propellers for learning new stuff, the same reason I go to school. Yes, I could read a book and believe ebverything said there is the absolute truth, or I can meet with a bunch of people and realize there are infinite solutions to the same problem and that they all have a point (at least a little). If conversations were just people communicating their ideas without willing to learn or at least dwell on others' points of view, there would be no progress for humans, no challenges for finding more logical/efficient/accurate/beautiful solutions for anything.


    -Do you think free speech is ever used as a 'get out of jail free card' for being an donkey?
    I have no idea what "donkey" means in this situation. In Spanish means "not very smart"


    -Would you rather use free speech (or see it used) to: unite or rile up? To 'teach people lessons' or 'relate to others'? Both? What has been effective in your experience?
    [/quote]

    I think I answered that above.

    I believe in "live and let live", with its corollary: "if you think you have the right to not letting me live, I believe I have the right to find your childhood trauma and use it to make you cry like a little kid" *shrugs*
    Last edited by CitizenErased; 09-13-2016 at 09:49 AM. Reason: skipped crucial word
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    There are a couple of aspects of free speech which Falcarius finds interesting:

    1) When does free speech become harassment/hate speech?

    For example, is it allowable to shout racist abuse at someone, or are they only allowed to have that view as long as they do not say it in font of people who may get offended, or can they have that point of view and voice their opinion in public as long they do not purposefully provoke others? What about Charlie Hebdo; was it inciting others?

    2) Are companies allowed to discriminate with who they trade with?

    For example, in the country Falcarius lives there was a well known legal case involving a couple who owned a small bed and breakfast which they lived in as well, who turned away a couple when they found out they were gay, since the owners thought it was against their religion to be homosexual.

    There is also a current case involving Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with Bernie and Ernie and pro-gay marriage slogan.

    Should those business have the right to discriminate on free speech grounds? And if not, then why not?
    It is OK to have free speech when you get to be racist, bigoted, sexist. Like, it's ok to hate the hetero white male. But if you as much as even THINK to hate the gay black/asian/reptilian female, oh boy, you're so promoting hate speech.

    See, I have no problem someone hating white men, let these people be as retarded as they would like. But I also reserve the right to dislike people. I won't encourage people to "kill all feminists" (as opposed to the hashtag kill all men), but I would encourage them to mock the ridiculous misandrist movement. Or to mock the racist movement called Black Li(v)es Matter. Just to give an example.

    As for the bakery thing, I really think companies should get to choose their clients. Consider it... a ban. Like how I got banned from that dear men thread. Should I sue the forum for not allowing me to conduct my business on that thread? Heck no. Let them censor whoever they want. The bakery should have been criticized publicly, instead of punished. People can make their own decision if they still want to go to that place. If the bakery's attitude was shitty, public opinion would have ruined their business. Policing thought and what someone says or does with their business is mighty Marxist.

  7. #7
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    this is my take on it

    basically i can say what i want, but at the same time people have the right to say shut the fuck up and not listen. what can't happen is if i say "all dogs are horrible" the aspca can't come in and euthanize me. i can't cause bodily harm to someone just because i don't agree with her/his view point i can tell them to shut up. and they have the right not to listen.


    but that comic sums it up. you can say what you want but if you're pissing tons of people off don't be suprised when they show you the door. your rights aren't being violated in that instance.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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    Free speech is always highly qualified and I'm fine with that.

    Most people demand free speech to excuse the free thought they arent bothering with.
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    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Most people demand free speech to excuse the free thought they arent bothering with.
    Leave Trump out of this.
    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Leave Trump out of this.
    Probably not even the worst offender but good example none the less.

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