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  1. #1
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Unhappy Istanbul Airport

    @Frosty, you were just there!

    I was supposed to be living in Turkey this past spring to further my language studies, but my family did an “Intervention” to persuade me of their concerns and I desisted out of respect for their anxiety over the political situation & my safety.

    Turkey is such a beautiful city with rich history and breath-taking architecture.

    Let’s be decent and not discriminate unfairly. But, let’s also not put out heads in the sand and hide behind the blinders of PC mentality. How long before we are cleaning the blood off of North American airport walls? (I am asking sincerely, not as fear-mongering tactic.)



    - Officials say 239 people were injured, with 41 still intensive care.

    - ISIS rarely, if ever, claims responsibility for attacks against the Turkish state yet it is quick to advertise its assassinations of Syrian activists inside Turkey.

    - All the signs point towards ISIS being the culprits. This is what British counter-terrorism officials term "a marauding terrorist firearms attack", following a pattern first seen in the Mumbai attacks of 2008.

    - ISIS is targeting Turkey because it sees its government as being un-Islamic and too close to its Western allies in Nato. IS is also feeling the pressure as the Turkish authorities move to close down its networks inside Turkey.

    - Turkey's other main foe, Kurdish separatists, have carried out many attacks over the years but their primary targets have tended to be Turkish policemen and soldiers.

    Istanbul Ataturk airport attack: Deaths rise to 41 as Turkey mourns - BBC News
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  2. #2
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    It is horrible. And very sad.
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

    “It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.”

    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    @Frosty, you were just there!

    I was supposed to be living in Turkey this past spring to further my language studies, but my family did an “Intervention” to persuade me of their concerns and I desisted out of respect for their anxiety over the political situation & my safety.

    Turkey is such a beautiful city with rich history and breath-taking architecture.

    Let’s be decent and not discriminate unfairly. But, let’s also not put out heads in the sand and hide behind the blinders of PC mentality. How long before we are cleaning the blood off of North American airport walls? (I am asking sincerely, not as fear-mongering tactic.)



    - Officials say 239 people were injured, with 41 still intensive care.

    - ISIS rarely, if ever, claims responsibility for attacks against the Turkish state yet it is quick to advertise its assassinations of Syrian activists inside Turkey.

    - All the signs point towards ISIS being the culprits. This is what British counter-terrorism officials term "a marauding terrorist firearms attack", following a pattern first seen in the Mumbai attacks of 2008.

    - ISIS is targeting Turkey because it sees its government as being un-Islamic and too close to its Western allies in Nato. IS is also feeling the pressure as the Turkish authorities move to close down its networks inside Turkey.

    - Turkey's other main foe, Kurdish separatists, have carried out many attacks over the years but their primary targets have tended to be Turkish policemen and soldiers.

    Istanbul Ataturk airport attack: Deaths rise to 41 as Turkey mourns - BBC News
    Yeah my parents and I have been talking about it... And its just so sad.

    Im going to just say- Turkey is an absolutely BEAUTIfUL country.

    And this isnt fair. Ill try to explain what I mean.

    So tourism rates in Turkey have been going down A LOT because of all the fear surrounding ISIS and its association with Islam. With 90% of Islams population being Muslim, well... People just find it easy to associate Turkey with extremism and danger and anti- christianity.

    But here... So our tour guide was Islamic and he said some really really interesting things. He said- and I dont really know if this is true- the basis of it- but he mentioned that in the Quran, Jesus is actually mentioned more often than Muhammad- and anyone involved in radical extremism, in his opinion, had either never read the Quran and were giving into hype, or were misunderstanding the Quran... And giving into hype. And he said it was extrmeely sad... Because as a whole... Islam isnt naturally anymore violent than any other religion.

    But with the radicals continuing doing what they are doing- and with shit like this- the whole religion- and therefore the whole country gets a ruining rep.

    He told us that Turkey makes 12 percent of its annual income off of AMERICAN tourism. And it was down when we were there SEVERELY. To the point where people were on the streets begging the tourists to buy their stuff... Really high quality stuff for less and less as you continued walking. It was really fucking sad.

    And now itll be EVEN worse. There will be MORE fear associated with the country. And people like our EXTREMELY NICE tour guide will have to work and struggle even more.

    And my parents and I were talking and we all agreed that... We felt NO MORE unsafe in Turkey than we felt anywhere else- Greece, France, Italy, Spain...

    Its just really really sad.
    The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you’re going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins.
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  4. #4
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    @Frosty, I am so glad you weighed in on this.

    There are SO many misconceptions (propaganda) presented as fact, in North America.

    Because we do face real and present danger, it’s important our understandings be accurate.

    For example, most Arabic friends I have become bemused and shocked when I mention the common “martyrs will receive 72 virgins” rhetoric. They have simply never heard of such a thing.

    So, I looked into it.


    Is this found in the Quaran?

    No, this is never mentioned in the Quaran. It comes from a passages in Hadiths. The term Hadith (حديث) comes from the root word “report”. These Hadiths are considered “reports” or “accounts” of things that Mohammad said or did and come secondary to the Quaran. They have varying levels of authenticity, from hasan (good) to sahih (authentic).


    Are the Virgins only women?

    No. It can be inferred from the context that both men and women believers will have plural number of (حورية’) ‘houris’ for themselves. All adjectives applied to ‘houris’ can be applied to both genders: splendid, pure, companions, modest, wide-eyed (with the exception of ‘large-breasted’).

    Quran 52:24
    Round about the believers will serve, to them, young boys, who will be as pearls well-guarded.


    Quran 56:17
    And round about them will (serve them) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you would think they were scattered pearls


    Why do those of Islamic faith not immediately recognize this teaching re: Virgins?

    Because English speakers concentrate on that term. The Quaran refers to houris among which virginity is one aspect. More often they are described as having lovely eyes, pure, faithful, eternally young.

    Lending an air of poeticism is the fact that commonly referred to in Sunni belief: the houri do not defecate or urinate and are ‘transparent to the marrow of their bones’.



    Was this a promise made to support Terrorism?

    No. ALL males (and everyone actually) who enter Paradise will receive this reward according to the Quaran. The description of paradise is quite sensual (surely America can relate to an idea of paradise that includes eternal erections and lovely-eyed beautiful companions :P).

    Suicide is clearly forbidden in Islam, but the sanctioning of martyring operations (Istishhad) has scholars being split on the issue.The Qur'an DOES state that those who fight in the way of Allah (jihad) and get killed will be given a "great reward”. This has lead to the 72 virgins concept being widely used as a way to entice other Muslims into carrying out "martyrdom operations" for Islam.

    ie. in Palestine where the actions of a mother who sends her son to die as a martyr is sometimes seen as "marrying him off”. Or in the UK, where in one event, Muslim teens were told to train with Kalashnikov rifles with the promise that they would receive 72 virgins in paradise if they died as religious martyrs.


    So, what does the average Muslim believe in this regard?


    Many Muslims DO believe in the {sensual} promises of Paradise.

    However, religious beliefs can easily be manipulated by self-serving people. For example, the common Christian ideology of “harps and angel wings on puffy clouds” is not actually found in Biblical texts. Yet, it is how heaven is commonly perceived.

    The belief that martyrs who commit terrorism will be rewarded with 72 virgins is an interpretation founded by people with evil intent who quote secondary texts of varying authenticity for this purpose.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    @Frosty, I am so glad you weighed in on this.

    There are SO many misconceptions (propaganda) presented as fact, in North America.

    Because we do face real and present danger, it’s important our understandings be accurate.

    For example, most Arabic friends I have become bemused and shocked when I mention the common “martyrs will receive 72 virgins” rhetoric. They have simply never heard of such a thing.

    So, I looked into it.


    Is this found in the Quaran?

    No, this is never mentioned in the Quaran. It comes from a passages in Hadiths. The term Hadith (حديث) comes from the root word “report”. These Hadiths are considered “reports” or “accounts” of things that Mohammad said or did and come secondary to the Quaran. They have varying levels of authenticity, from hasan (good) to sahih (authentic).


    Are the Virgins only women?

    No. It can be inferred from the context that both men and women believers will have plural number of (حورية’) ‘houris’ for themselves. All adjectives applied to ‘houris’ can be applied to both genders: splendid, pure, companions, modest, wide-eyed (with the exception of ‘large-breasted’).

    Quran 52:24
    Round about the believers will serve, to them, young boys, who will be as pearls well-guarded.


    Quran 56:17
    And round about them will (serve them) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you would think they were scattered pearls


    Why do those of Islamic faith not immediately recognize this teaching re: Virgins?

    Because English speakers concentrate on that term. The Quaran refers to houris among which virginity is one aspect. More often they are described as having lovely eyes, pure, faithful, eternally young.

    Lending an air of poeticism is the fact that commonly referred to in Sunni belief: the houri do not defecate or urinate and are ‘transparent to the marrow of their bones’.



    Was this a promise made to support Terrorism?

    No. ALL males (and everyone actually) who enter Paradise will receive this reward according to the Quaran. The description of paradise is quite sensual (surely America can relate to an idea of paradise that includes eternal erections and lovely-eyed beautiful companions :P).

    Suicide is clearly forbidden in Islam, but the sanctioning of martyring operations (Istishhad) has scholars being split on the issue.The Qur'an DOES state that those who fight in the way of Allah (jihad) and get killed will be given a "great reward”. This has lead to the 72 virgins concept being widely used as a way to entice other Muslims into carrying out "martyrdom operations" for Islam.

    ie. in Palestine where the actions of a mother who sends her son to die as a martyr is sometimes seen as "marrying him off”. Or in the UK, where in one event, Muslim teens were told to train with Kalashnikov rifles with the promise that they would receive 72 virgins in paradise if they died as religious martyrs.


    So, what does the average Muslim believe in this regard?


    Many Muslims DO believe in the {sensual} promises of Paradise.

    However, religious beliefs can easily be manipulated by self-serving people. For example, the common Christian ideology of “harps and angel wings on puffy clouds” is not actually found in Biblical texts. Yet, it is how heaven is commonly perceived.

    The belief that martyrs who commit terrorism will be rewarded with 72 virgins is an interpretation founded by people with evil intent who quote secondary texts of varying authenticity for this purpose.
    Excellent post. I have started reading the Qur'an due to my own frustration with my own ignorance.

    This is something I have been meaning to delve into (the 72 virgin idea) and will bookmark Hadiths as another thing to delve into...

    I have already seen in The Bible how verses can be construed to "fit" a self-serving agenda.

    Your post does a good job of making that known.

    I don't have enough info on this attack yet to comment. Other than it looks well planned. It is anger-inducing and saddening.
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  6. #6
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
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    Sigh.

    I would love to be wrong, but I think violence/terror will start to become more of the norm almost everywhere. Whenever I hear about things like this I think of the Batman world / Gotham city.

    Also, unrelated, but, I adore Turkey. It is such a rich country, with beautiful landscapes, amazing cuisine, very rich and diverse history (hotbed of civilization), and... well...
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Three attackers arrived in a taxi and began firing at the terminal entrance late on Tuesday. They blew themselves up after police fired back.
    I devised that strategy at least a decade ago

    You have a few airplanes get hijacked/bombed/whatever so obviously you implement this security theater/jobs program. It doesn't work, but it provides a ton of jobs and the amount of effort put into is so massive that you'll trick a bunch of people into thinking it matters. Side note from today: It took me 3 hours from the time I set foot into Dublin's airport until I could actually sit down at my gate. Then summer comes along and everyone packs into humongous crowds for their own safety. And there you have it: the perfect audience to prove what an idiotic idea it is.

    We need to go back to the honor system when it comes to air travel. You're 100% going to die. Why waste my time at the airport because someone is insecure about brown-ish people?
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  8. #8
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Excellent post. I have started reading the Qur'an due to my own frustration with my own ignorance.

    This is something I have been meaning to delve into (the 72 virgin idea) and will bookmark Hadiths as another thing to delve into...

    I have already seen in The Bible how verses can be construed to "fit" a self-serving agenda.

    Your post does a good job of making that known.

    I don't have enough info on this attack yet to comment. Other than it looks well planned. It is anger-inducing and saddening.
    Idk, I get the idea but, although I haven't read, we had a Phd War Journalist do a research and write a book about it - including meeting with a high (ex?)leader of Al-Qaeda about his research accuracy, in order to basically provide us/the western a clear understanding of their beliefs, and then in an interview on the evening news, explain and emphasize how it's no joke, ie, not the virgin thing per se, but their war moto - as their prophet was a war general unlike Jesus.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Idk, I get the idea but, although I haven't read, we had a Phd War Journalist do a research and write a book about it - including meeting with a high (ex?)leader of Al-Qaeda about his research accuracy, in order to basically provide us/the western a clear understanding of their beliefs, and then in an interview on the evening news, explain and emphasize how it's no joke, ie, not the virgin thing per se, but their war moto - as their prophet was a war general unlike Jesus.
    I'm not discounting other types of information. I prefer taking in information from all sources. Also, I'm speaking for myself here.

    ISIS is a real threat. It's only going to get worse.

    Since there is a haziness here in terms of interpretation being corrupted....

    I want to be able to speak from firsthand, preferably, so I know who to separate as well versed in these issues and those that are not. I don't want to *entirely* trust someone to tell me what to think or why I should think a certain way without some strong baseline knowledge I can get myself.

    Right now, I can't say with certainty I can separate the fear-mongers from the rest. Or what aspects of the fear is valid verses which isn't.

    I would rather trust myself first to make that distinction with information that I have access to. Then use other sources to build upon that.
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  10. #10
    Let me help u with this geedoenfj's Avatar
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    I've been there couple of times, luckily I wasn't there this summer, it's such a beautiful country with a great history and nice people.. my heart goes for the innocent people and their families
    Don't climb mountains so that people can see you. Climb mountains so that you can see the world.



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