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Thread: Immigrants?

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    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Question Immigrants?

    When people from my country move to other's, they are generally called "ex-pats". Even when they settle there for many years, learn the language and adopt the customs...

    When people from other countries move here they are generally called "Immigrants". Even when they have lived here for a substantial time, raised families and learnt the language.

    When is one an ex-pat and when an immigrant? WHAT decides which term applies?

    If you come from Immigrants, what connotations does the term have for You?

    If you had a hand in making policy: what would you ask of Immigrants coming to your country? (Learning local language within certain time etc?)

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    From my observation, as an American, my fondness of early 20th century American literature, and from what I read about happenings in Europe, the word immigrant is typically applied to lower class people, no matter their race. The "settlers" who murdered indigenous tribes in the Americas never considered themselves "immigrants" ...that word collectively seemed to apply to people who came later, desperate for a better way of life...in fact what many modern Republicans might not want to acknowledge, is that Abraham Lincoln himself gave away homesteads to American citizens back in the day - they would likely call that socialism or "property theft and redistribution by the government" nowadays - anyway, I'm getting off topic...but mostly I see the word immigrants applied to people who came here from the late 19th century forward, and then something about huddled masses, not international educated travelers who brought their enterprise or fortune here.

    In fact, what we are seeing right now in the States with Mexican immigrants, is that the terrible massive influx is largely due to poverty and classism in Mexico. Mexican isn't a "race"...there are blond Mexican people, it's just most of them have money and still live in Mexico. The perceived burden are the lower class Mexicans coming here for work, but of course so many people who say they understand why they aren't voting for Hillary Clinton but instead for Donald Trump, can't seem to wrap their mind around the fact that American policy is what helped push the Mexican lower class here - though obviously Mexico is concurrently at fault.

    No one, or less people, take(s) issue with gifted Moroccan students studying in New York, but things become problematic with an influx of less educated Muslims...because class is traditionally about education, not just money.

    Which brings me to the American ex pat of the early 20th century...when they weren't wealthy (the Fitzgeralds) they were brilliant (Henry Miller)...people much more gladly welcome people who have something to offer, even if that thing isn't money.

    And immigration being about class is of UTMOST importance, especially with what we are seeing with Brexit accusations of racism among less educated older Britons, and working class Americans blindly voting Trump...because something reeks afoul when you're opening arms to other people's lower classes but are embarassed of your own. It's like the mother who neglects her own children to help those in Africa, and wonders why her own selfish children are such brats when they're hers...there's something extremely malodorous about a left wing that won't admit their working class don't play well with neighborhood children because they've been pointedly neglected by a left wing which is more identity politics that makes them feel like they're good people, even as they're secretly stingy elitists.

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    I think only until recently did phenomenal aspects of being cease drastic modes of discrimination in North America, and I usually don't see us as a species (globally) ever far off from insanity
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    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I think "ex-pat" is usually used by people to describe countrymen who've left the country for another. "Immigrant" is usually used by the host country to describe people who've moved here.

    If I got to ask them questions, I'd quiz them on their opinions of the US Constitution, specifically the bill of rights. If they express socialist views or views that are anti-american, I'd want to ban them from staying in the country. For example, if the potential immigrant says he doesn't believe that we should be allowed to draw cartoons of their religious leaders, he doesn't belong here. If the guy agrees that the "rich aren't paying their fair share", he's not entering either. I want contributors; we have enough moochers and nutjobs already.
    Saw a giant billboard today for the "Picard" movie; at this point, they probably should've just rebooted the entire franchise or not made the film at all. Stewart is getting up there in age.
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    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    When people from my country move to other's, they are generally called "ex-pats". Even when they settle there for many years, learn the language and adopt the customs...

    When people from other countries move here they are generally called "Immigrants". Even when they have lived here for a substantial time, raised families and learnt the language.

    When is one an ex-pat and when an immigrant? WHAT decides which term applies?
    Well, I see your point here, and I think you'll just get different perspectives on this depending on who you ask. Some people will say it is related to nationality, others to learning the culture and language, some would even say it is related to ethnicity/race. Personally, I think it relates to the first two, nationality and identification with culture. Race is not important because humans are free to go where they want, a group of people aeren't "linked" to a continent or part of the world. I would say identification with culture and local language should (or at least could) lead to obtaining nationality.


    If you come from Immigrants, what connotations does the term have for You?
    Well, my father was an immigrant even though he had Belgian nationality and my mother is a native Belgian. The term doesn't really have negative connotations, except that it must be said that I find alot of North Africans in Brussels to be really badly behaved in the street, public transport etc. I don't want to stop immigration altogether, as I am myself the son of an immigrant and I know many immigrants who are good, contributing members of society. But theres also alot of who aeren't. I don't fully blame the xenophobes for being xenophobes, and it has nothing to do with who is native European and who isn't, I'm just tired of all these kids who behave like smartasses in the streets of Brussels, it honestly makes the city extremely unpleasant.


    If you had a hand in making policy: what would you ask of Immigrants coming to your country? (Learning local language within certain time etc?)
    In light of what I said above, I don't think I'm a racist or a xenophobe, but I am tired of all these people who behave like hoodlums. And its not a joke, if you've ever been to Brussels you would know. I don't know what the best solution, I don't want to close our borders at all, but I think Belgians needs to take the preoblem of petty crime, street harassement and bad behavior more seriously, I keep hearing people say "its not a big deal" that these kids behave badly, but it is a big deal. And there are white kids who behave like this too, but to be fair its mostly Moroccans...

    I don't have the solution at this point. "Extreme right" policies are unjust towards immirgants who are fine, responsible citizens and yet saying that immigration policies have been good in Belgium is hypocrisy. I think what the problem is is not individual people who come as immigrants to work or study, its mass immigration.

    tl;dr I don't have a problem with immirgation in theory, except that in practice most immigrants, those who came through mass immigration, don't seem to contribute to much.

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    If there's one thing worse than multiculturalism its monoculturalism.

    How impoverished would be your palate if you only wanted to eat a single thing for the rest of your life and eschewed all variety? Though people think that's fine when it comes to who they'd rather have as a neighbour.

    I know many more ball bags who're supposedly from the same cultural malaise as me, or at the very least share a common language, than I do foreigners or refugees or "immigants", its all a bunch of bullshit vagaries used to manipulate people, poison bought wholesale by a dumbed down public who want to keep things simple and angry, sold by a bunch of snake oil peddling hucksters who pass for politicians these days.

    The sooner people wake up to that and realise we're one world the better. FS.
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    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post

    When is one an ex-pat and when an immigrant? WHAT decides which term applies?

    If you come from Immigrants, what connotations does the term have for You?

    If you had a hand in making policy: what would you ask of Immigrants coming to your country? (Learning local language within certain time etc?)
    First question: It depends on the perspective of the countries involved. If I moved to Canada and became a Canadian citizen (though resident would qualify too I suppose) then to the United States I would be considered an 'ex-pat.' To the Canadians I'd be considered an immigrant until I became a citizen. At that point legally I might be a citizen but native Canadians might still consider me an 'American immigrant' depending on their perspective.

    Second question: What do you mean by 'coming from Immigrants?' Is that question directed at immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants?

    Third question: Assimilate in the melting pot model vs. a salad model. All immigrants have something unique to bring to the host pot but they are supposed to be come part of the stew, not separate vegetables in a salad bowl. Adopt the dominant language of business and commerce. You don't have to forget your native language but stress the importance of the host and blending in as part of the host. If you come from a place with values antithetical to your host country then you should abandon those old values instead of expecting your fellow neighbors in your host country to adapt to the values you bring. This means no setting up of parallel institutions of law and local government (I.e. special courts for Sharia law in a Western democracy)

    Once upon of time all of this would seem reasonable and like common sense but now a days people that mention this are branded xenophobes, bigots, and racists.
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    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Third question: Assimilate in the melting pot model vs. a salad model. All immigrants have something unique to bring to the host pot but they are supposed to be come part of the stew, not separate vegetables in a salad bowl. Adopt the dominant language of business and commerce. You don't have to forget your native language but stress the importance of the host and blending in as part of the host. If you come from a place with values antithetical to your host country then you should abandon those old values instead of expecting your fellow neighbors in your host country to adapt to the values you bring. This means no setting up of parallel institutions of law and local government (I.e. special courts for Sharia law in a Western democracy)

    Once upon of time all of this would seem reasonable and like common sense but now a days people that mention this are branded xenophobes, bigots, and racists.
    Totally agree here, I don't understand why saying you don't want people who defend sharia law in your own country for example to be xenophobic/racist/whatever. I think some people are so surpassed by the situation is western countries that they would rather act like there isn't any problem since its easier to hide one's head in the sand, and accuse those who see there is a problem to be paranoid, because quiet frankly there is a problem. I don't want to stop immigration altogether, but we need to stop tolerating those who refuse to accept the host culture as their own, as it is perceived as a form of conquest by those living in that host culture (and correctly so, since leaders of the Arab world have as an ambition to extend their religious influence to western countries, and globalization provides the perfect "territory" to spread their religion, too)
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    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    When my sister lived in Tokyo, Americans were all "ex-pats", even the long term ones married to a Japanese lady. Japanese do not accept gaijin into their society..... My BIL has near native fluency in Japanese and many Japanese were offended after talking with him on the phone and later finding out he was American.

    Ex-pats are temporary residents. Americans in France in the interwar period were ex-pats, because they didn't give up their American identity and the French didn't really accept them as French anyway.

    Today we have mostly immigration with much less assimilation. Settlers don't plan on returning. They are committed to their new country. Then want to adopt to the ways of their new country and give up their own ways.

    My biggest departure from Libertarians has always been immigration. A country is more than just people in a shared geographic region. It is sharing history and culture and values.

    I would never move to India and expect people to adapt to me. I would never move to Nigeria and expect to live by American values. I would never go to Turkey and expect it to be like America.

    I feel like an ex-pat in Texas. I am not a Texan. I don't talk like a Texan. I don't own an arsenal of guns like most Texans. And a hundred little things. But that is ok. I don't plan on living here forever, so I am not a settler in Texas.....

    On this subject, I highly recommend "Who Are We" by Samuel Huntington. It really is a nice work to understand America and the important things we have lost that once contributed to unity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    I think only until recently did phenomenal aspects of being cease drastic modes of discrimination in North America, and I usually don't see us as a species (globally) ever far off from insanity
    I'm trying to understand what you mean here. "Phenomenal aspects of being cease drastic modes of discrimination" mainly. I got the last part, tho.
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