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  1. #21
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    That is why the system needs reforms. I completely agree that EU started to pump tonns of pointless laws such a this coffee machine stuff or what should be the right size for pickles. I don't understand that someone in political sphere doesn't understands that politicians look stupid when they they make these kinds of laws. Not to mention that we trully have bigger problems on this continent.


    But as I said EU keeps many things under control and even insures some kind of democracy standard in some of its Eastern countries, especially when compared with alternative(s).
    I suspect the Eurocrats can't help themselves. They can't see the problems in their own ideology and can't understand why unnecessary authoritarianism inherent in such silly laws only causes resentment and strife.

    Europe not fighting amongst itself is a good thing. But it doesn't need the EU to make it so. Even the commercial union can exist fine without the close political bounds. I felt for decades that there would be a severe overreach by the EU that would lead to its failure.... I have just been waiting for the inevitable....
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
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    “It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.”

    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays

  2. #22
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I suspect the Eurocrats can't help themselves. They can't see the problems in their own ideology and can't understand why unnecessary authoritarianism inherent in such silly laws only causes resentment and strife.

    Europe not fighting amongst itself is a good thing. But it doesn't need the EU to make it so. Even the commercial union can exist fine without the close political bounds. I felt for decades that there would be a severe overreach by the EU that would lead to its failure.... I have just been waiting for the inevitable....


    This is why I am willing to give the union a chance, because I know that what we have now is just a consequence of having wrong people in the office.
    The problem is that many countries in Europe are too small/uneducated/undemocratic to trully stand on free market or in open conflict. We simply can't trully compete with trillions from USA and cheap workforce from Asia. However if you gather all the small pieces and make some kind of standardization we have a chance.



    I would even argue opposite, political union without economic union.

    If there is economic union larger countries take control over smaller countries or crash their economy ... and then you basically get what you have today.
    Instead we need political union, for example same currency so that we as a continent are more attractive to investment, we should cordinate our common foreign policy, we should have some kind social stanardization that makes sure that no one lags or goes totalitarian ... etc. Of course this will requre some level of economic union but until standards of life balance out inside the union there can't be trully free market in the union, because that leads countries into bankruptcy and demographic problems due to emmigration.
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  3. #23
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Meanwhile:

    What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

    All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.
    Simon Sweeney
    Lecturer in international political economy, University of York
    Letters: What's the EU ever done for us? This lot… | World news | The Guardian

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  4. #24
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    This is why all sides have to sit down and honestly talk, too much giving orders will not get as far. However if we trully sit down and talk then we will be a true union. I doubt that any/many citizen of EU trully wants the union build as a dictatorship of technocrats.
    Thing is we elect MEPs to do that, and they do talk, but politics gets in the way. Furthering their own interests, their party's interests etc. I just don't have the same faith that you do that it'll get any better, therefore to me it is an unnecessary extra layer of government.

  5. #25
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Is there any trustable data how people in UK actually think about this issue ?

  6. #26
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    That is why the system needs reforms. I completely agree that EU started to pump tonns of pointless laws such a this coffee machine stuff or what should be the right size for pickles. I don't understand that someone in political sphere doesn't understands that politicians look stupid when they make these kinds of laws. Not to mention that we trully have bigger problems on this continent.
    Who's going to make these reforms? The biggest problem with the EU is that almost every proposal is submitted by the commission which only consists of 28 people.
    That's an easy game for lobbyists. For instance take the planned seed law 2 years ago. The proposal intended to limit the sources one can buy seeds from and allowed patenting of various seeds for global corporations. This law has already been installed in the US where it brings in loads of money for Monsanto and other global players.
    The exact contents of the proposal have only been published after the vote, so they negotiated it in secret! Just like they do it now with TTIP.

    Luckily the parliament has turned down the proposal with an astounding majority. How is it possible that something so unpopular and obviously guided by corporate interest is even handed to the parliament for voting? There aren't many possible explanations besides the EU commission being bought.

    Now, even though the parliament decides if a law is established or not, the commission has the full legislative power and the parliament none. This makes the EU only a pseudo-democracy in which the big decisions are made by a small group of people who are not elected and the parliament only functions as an executive.

    The EU doesn't need reforms, it needs a totally new political system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    But as I said EU keeps many things under control and even insures some kind of democracy standard in some of its Eastern countries, especially when compared with alternative(s).
    They have no right to sanction a country because their democratically elected government doesn't meet their standards. They are not in the position to play nanny for all the EU members or try "to save the people from themselves". Every government takes advantage of the respective public media in their country, that's not only happening in Poland or Hungary.
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  7. #27
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Thing is we elect MEPs to do that, and they do talk, but politics gets in the way. Furthering their own interests, their party's interests etc. I just don't have the same faith that you do that it'll get any better, therefore to me it is an unnecessary extra layer of government.

    Understandable, because your standard of living is much higher. Therefore for you it is harder to go even more up since you are already pretty much at the top of the world. While I have to work very hard my whole life to come close to you, and this "extra" layer of goverment can potentially make it easier for me to come to that point. Also you are from the country that was never openly totalitarian and you don't have to worry that with the end of EU you will end up in a real dictatorship or another warzone. (my democracy is just 20 years old and therefore it is younger than me)

  8. #28
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Who's going to make these reforms? The biggest problem with the EU is that almost every proposal is submitted by the commission which only consists of 28 people.
    That's an easy game for lobbyists. For instance take the planned seed law 2 years ago. The proposal intended to limit the sources one can buy seeds from and allowed patenting of various seeds for global corporations. This law has already been installed in the US where it brings in loads of money for Monsanto and other global players.
    The exact contents of the proposal have only been published after the vote, so they negotiated it in secret! Just like they do it now with TTIP.

    Luckily the parliament has turned down the proposal with an astounding majority. How is it possible that something so unpopular and obviously guided by corporate interest is even handed to the parliament for voting? There aren't many possible explanations besides the EU commission being bought.

    Now, even though the parliament decides if a law is established or not, the commission has the full legislative power and the parliament none. This makes the EU only a pseudo-democracy in which the big decisions are made by a small group of people who are not elected and the parliament only functions as an executive.

    The EU doesn't need reforms, it needs a totally new political system.
    I agree that the commission has too much power and the parliament not enough. That can be fixed though.



    They have no right to sanction a country because their democratically elected government doesn't meet their standards. They are not in the position to play nanny for all the EU members or try "to save the people from themselves". Every government takes advantage of the respective public media in their country, that's not only happening in Poland or Hungary.
    Sure they have the right to do that. They did it with Austria for less. The EU has certain democratic core values and if a country (democratically elected or not, that doesn't matter) violates those principles there are mechanisms in place against that. Poland and Hungary have both not only drifted to the extreme right, they have introduced laws that violate European standards of free democratic nations. That is the issue. There is a reason why there a loads of protests in Poland after what the new government has already done in a such a short period of time. They are basically sh*ting on Western values.

    If you violate the rules of a club there are disciplinary measures. It's the most normal thing in the world. Nobody forced them to join and they took the EU money all too happily.

    I sometimes think many Eastern Europeans joined the EU thinking it was an awesome cash machine where you get Western European subsidies and a general increase in prosperity without any drawbacks or concessions.
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  9. #29
    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    If it involves loss of personal liberty, I'd say no. If it means having to bail out irresponsible nations like Greece, Spain, or Portugal, that's a big no. If it means you have no choice in accepting refugees, I'd say no. If it means, you lose sovereignty in deciding who gets into the country, I'd say no.
    Saw bits of the Picard trailer on SyFy last night; 7 of 9 is in this and she didn't get fat.
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  10. #30
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Who's going to make these reforms? The biggest problem with the EU is that almost every proposal is submitted by the commission which only consists of 28 people.
    That's an easy game for lobbyists. For instance take the planned seed law 2 years ago. The proposal intended to limit the sources one can buy seeds from and allowed patenting of various seeds for global corporations. This law has already been installed in the US where it brings in loads of money for Monsanto and other global players.
    The exact contents of the proposal have only been published after the vote, so they negotiated it in secret! Just like they do it now with TTIP.

    Luckily the parliament has turned down the proposal with an astounding majority. How is it possible that something so unpopular and obviously guided by corporate interest is even handed to the parliament for voting? There aren't many possible explanations besides the EU commission being bought.

    Now, even though the parliament decides if a law is established or not, the commission has the full legislative power and the parliament none. This makes the EU only a pseudo-democracy in which the big decisions are made by a small group of people who are not elected and the parliament only functions as an executive.

    The EU doesn't need reforms, it needs a totally new political system.

    They have no right to sanction a country because their democratically elected government doesn't meet their standards. They are not in the position to play nanny for all the EU members or try "to save the people from themselves". Every government takes advantage of the respective public media in their country, that's not only happening in Poland or Hungary.


    Once again a matter of prespective. It is true that there can be corruption and that should be investigated. However that does not change the fact that even your national parliament can't get corrupted as well. As a matter of fact corruption is harder where there is more various interests. But to be fully open I am from the country that has corrution problems that are far beyond what you are experiencing in your country and therefore I am pretty sure that EU is actually reducing corruption in my case.


    For example I am from a place where democracy is younger than myself and civil right are still not trully developed. Therefore I must admit that in some decisions I actually trust more the EU than my local elites. In my country typical parliament member gets only about 3 thousand euros a month, what is still about 4-5 times more than average person. (ministers get something like 4 thousands) What means that with just a million or two od euros you can buy my whole government without any problems. (probably you can even get the opposition for that money) Therefore when we consider that corporations have billions in profits it is easy to do the math how hard it is to keep corportions away from our decision making. Therfore for me EU is perhaps still a good thing in this regard.


    Yes, it has a right to sanction or at least condemn government against which its own people are protesting, because it is are trying to limit freedom of information and speech. I would gladly call you to Eastern Europe from about 40 or 50 years ago and then you would see what is trully the lack of freedom and how deep is abyss.
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