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Can there be chaotic good?

Lark

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I have a lot to say on this, including the latest rules and some reference to Kant in so far as he thought people should act as though their behaviour should become a universal law but for now I just want to kick it off (plus I am on a phone).

It is a reference to the DnD character classes typology but I am presuming no real knowledge of the same, just in general what do you think?
 

The Cat

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Are there good people who act as their conscience directs without regard to the letter of the law?
 

Totenkindly

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We can wait to hear what you have to say, when you're on a real computer.

I mean, these kinds of people obviously exist. So your angle won't be clear until you state it.
 

Virtual ghost

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It is possible. My country/culture is full of such people, which would type as various ExxPs, 7fixers and Sx doms. At the end of the day law may not be a good thing and if you have so many dictatorships in your national history as me it isn't hard to imagine how Chaotic Good would look like. What is logical outcome if goodness can't really be achieved through the law. Actually good chunk of the people that were saving other people during the Holocaust are probably Chaotic good or at least somewhere close to that box. Chaotic in many cases is just trashy term for "having balls in concrete situations".
 

Virtual ghost

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Btw.

I am pretty sure that a fair chunk of the best comedians that ever lived is actually Chaotic good.
 
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On the fringes of civilization sure. My favorite class in D&D is ranger and my favorite alignment is chaotic good. The two are made for one another imo. Someone who lives on the dividing line between civilization and the wilds can’t rely on a greater authority to always be there to uphold good with an entire infrastructure backing it. More importantly, the chaotic good character may not want a wider system to be there. Chaotic good is internal, unwavering, and ultimately unconcerned by the mandates of a bureaucracy. What’s right isn’t written in a law book, it’s felt throughout one’s being.

Could an entire society run on chaotic good? A small community maybe. Larger ones need more structure because of their size. That’s why I mention chaotic good fitting an individual on the frontier better, or perhaps like minded people in a small village, as opposed to an entire city state or kingdom.

In D&D the idea of good and evil is sewn into the fabric of a world by the core rules and governed by the gods themselves (the DM and the source material). You know when you’ve crossed the line because the rules are pretty clear about it. Real life could make a chaotic good philosophy a bit more difficult to manage. Just like a LG (lawful good) system starting to become corrupt, an individual CG person could slowly veer into darkness without realizing it because they are the arbiter of their own code. There really is no system of checks and balances beyond the individuals own perceptions.

P.S. I’m an unwavering fan of 3rd edition D&D as I’ve played the original,2nd and 4th also and think 3rd encapsulates the system well without being overwhelmed by unnecessary mechanics. I haven’t even played 5th edition. So I’m unaware of or concerned with new rules or changes in alignment philosophy.
 

Lark

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Are there good people who act as their conscience directs without regard to the letter of the law?

Well in theory that's neutral good or true good, the book I was reading Dungeons and Dragons and Philosophy explains that this is a possible character type in their opinion but that chaotic good is not as chaotic types wish an end to the law and order per se and not what they consider neutral good to be aiming at which is a "more perfect moral law".

I'm not sure about this to be honest, in my understanding of this chaotic or lawful can relate to personality as opposed to a belief or value, so it could be the difference between organised and unorganised or, what I think is more likely, disorganised action, in the earlier gamebooks that I've read the risk associated with the chaotic good character class was that their societies were short term and disintegrating in some way, inspired by charismatic leadership or visions, very vital and surviving well in good circumstances, the lawful in contrast possess continuity, the transmission of good via traditions, however, it has the possibility of becoming degenerate, more lawful than good, if that makes sense. In the essay I've read there is speculation that lawful netural or true lawful could even be the beginnings of lawful evil as the law is elevated above the subjects it is supposed to serve.

The netural good who believe that law is a good servant but bad master and even encourage reference to good without or contrary to deference to law is represented as being similar to characters such as Jesus Christ. Although as you know Jesus is more than human.
 

The Cat

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Chaotic good characters follow their conscience and try to help others, but without care for what's expected of their behavior. Elves are usually chaotic good.

Commonly referred to as “The Rebel,” chaotic goods let their conscience be their guide. They have their own morals that may conflict with society, but CGs don’t care for rules and regulations. These characters are ultimately benevolent and have kind hearts. And are usually fighting for a cause that is nearly impossible to win.

A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
 

Lark

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We can wait to hear what you have to say, when you're on a real computer.

I mean, these kinds of people obviously exist. So your angle won't be clear until you state it.

You assume I've got an angle, interesting.

Do you think there can be chaotic good? There's my angle. The title of the thread is a clue. Its posted in a philosophy and spirituality sub-forum. Also a clue.
 

Lark

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It is possible. My country/culture is full of such people, which would type as various ExxPs, 7fixers and Sx doms. At the end of the day law may not be a good thing and if you have so many dictatorships in your national history as me it isn't hard to imagine how Chaotic Good would look like. What is logical outcome if goodness can't really be achieved through the law. Actually good chunk of the people that were saving other people during the Holocaust are probably Chaotic good or at least somewhere close to that box. Chaotic in many cases is just trashy term for "having balls in concrete situations".

I agree with that really, considering most of the anti-authoritarian thinking I've ever read I think that too, I'm very interested in the experience and history of countries like your own with the history of dictatorships or absolute rulers.

The thing is that from a certain perspective this is neutral good rather than chaotic good as it involves a lawful behaviour by individuals or lawful conduct in the face of a criminal regime or lawful evil regime.

The idea put forward by the author of the essay in the book I mentioned is that from the Kantian perspective of pursuing conduct which deserves to become a universal rule, that is to say that the conduct be generalised beyond the individual, and that this is moral good itself, means that choatic behaviour, conduct or chaos as a goal, will always be evil so chaotic evil is possible but chaotic good is an impossibility.

My own understanding of chaotic good is that it would be represented by persons "out lawed" by criminal or villainous regimes, so in English legend it could be Robin Hood/Robin of Sherwood or in Scots legend it could be William Wallace, although the English legend is a better example than the Scots one as people generally think of Robin as a bandit, engaging in a sort of redistribution of wealth, as opposed to an anglo-saxon rebel agains norman occupation or supporting a particular ascendency of monarch or authorities whereas I think that William Wallace was supporter of a De Bruce ascendency to the Scottish throne.

The Zapatistas in Mexico might be chaotic good as the had no pretension to power themselves but instead were a protest. That's as I understand it though. I could be wrong about that.
 

Lark

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On the fringes of civilization sure. My favorite class in D&D is ranger and my favorite alignment is chaotic good. The two are made for one another imo. Someone who lives on the dividing line between civilization and the wilds can’t rely on a greater authority to always be there to uphold good with an entire infrastructure backing it. More importantly, the chaotic good character may not want a wider system to be there. Chaotic good is internal, unwavering, and ultimately unconcerned by the mandates of a bureaucracy. What’s right isn’t written in a law book, it’s felt throughout one’s being.

Could an entire society run on chaotic good? A small community maybe. Larger ones need more structure because of their size. That’s why I mention chaotic good fitting an individual on the frontier better, or perhaps like minded people in a small village, as opposed to an entire city state or kingdom.

In D&D the idea of good and evil is sewn into the fabric of a world by the core rules and governed by the gods themselves (the DM and the source material). You know when you’ve crossed the line because the rules are pretty clear about it. Real life could make a chaotic good philosophy a bit more difficult to manage. Just like a LG (lawful good) system starting to become corrupt, an individual CG person could slowly veer into darkness without realizing it because they are the arbiter of their own code. There really is no system of checks and balances beyond the individuals own perceptions.

P.S. I’m an unwavering fan of 3rd edition D&D as I’ve played the original,2nd and 4th also and think 3rd encapsulates the system well without being overwhelmed by unnecessary mechanics. I haven’t even played 5th edition. So I’m unaware of or concerned with new rules or changes in alignment philosophy.

Best post in thread.

I like the 2nd Edition to be honest but like I've said I read more than play, the mechanics interest me A LOT as I think they can correspond to some deeper thinking about life itself, I think this is part of what has produced the idea that certain alignments are impossible such as choatic good but I also think it is mistaken. Largely for reasons you have outlined here in this post.

The ranger type isnt one that I'm interested in as much as I am cleric, paladin, ninja and monk types but the idea of a "frontier individualism" or frontier context involving exactly what you've mentioned here, the lack of infrastructure or wider questions beyond personal quests and self-government/self-management totally makes sense.

I agree with what you have said also about the idea of generalising CG, or its becoming a universal law, beyond a small settlement of like minded individuals is unlikely, probably impossible, as the capacity for CG to be corrupting to an individual in the way that LG could be corrupting on a structural or social scale (in fact that contrast is itself a pretty interesting one itself which I'm going to think about more).

As I understand it the two contrasting schools of thought in Confucian and Taoist thinking exhibit these same differences, taoists suggest that individuals are naturally good, the traditions and other artifices of the ages impinge upon and inhibit this natural goodness, whereas the confucians supposed the exact opposite that individuals are naturally bad, the traditions and other artifices of the ages the only times preventing an even worse case scenario than is at present. This is, I think, a feature of the characters in The Forbidden Kingdom, Jackie Chan's drunken boxing Taoist Priest versus Jet Lee's Fighting Monk (although this could all be a mistaken interpretation, I do think the Monkey God is a CG avatar in Chinese myth and legend and I really like The Journey Into The West and that particular archetype).

I've also been told that Confucians and Taoists never tried to wipe each other out so much as different schools of thought in west have done. So the contrast is maybe not so sharp but I do think it is fundamental and the difference between LG and CG, both of which I think do exist.
 

Virtual ghost

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I agree with that really, considering most of the anti-authoritarian thinking I've ever read I think that too, I'm very interested in the experience and history of countries like your own with the history of dictatorships or absolute rulers.

The thing is that from a certain perspective this is neutral good rather than chaotic good as it involves a lawful behaviour by individuals or lawful conduct in the face of a criminal regime or lawful evil regime.



Not necessary, the natural good can be in this situation but that is another case. They will want to make a better social order but this can actually reduce their capacity to do good. Especially since there is corrupt order that has domination in law and force and therefore the best potential to do good is to be chaotic in order to dodge dangers by being adventurous, unpredictable and always ahead. Not to mention that crashing the totalitarian system without braking it's laws is actually highly unlikely scenario, while for systematic braking of the law you need a certain mindset.
Therefore goodness and law have obvious clash here. Especially since the evil may not be fully visible and people may decide to play along since they are blinded by order/fear.



Actually you must understand that your living in UK blinds you, since it is one the most lawful countries that ever existed. Not everything can/should be settled by law and you are mixing law and goodness that are two separate things. Especially since even the best law can cause bureaucracy or tradition and both can cause major suffering. Just because you can't relate to the mindset that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
 

Avocado

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Neutral Evil and Lawful Evil are the most effective alignments.
 

Lark

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Not necessary, the natural good can be in this situation but that is another case. They will want to make a better social order but this can actually reduce their capacity to do good. Especially since there is corrupt order that has domination in law and force and therefore the best potential to do good is to be chaotic in order to dodge dangers by being adventurous, unpredictable and always ahead. Not to mention that crashing the totalitarian system without braking it's laws is actually highly unlikely scenario, while for systematic braking of the law you need a certain mindset.
Therefore goodness and law have obvious clash here. Especially since the evil may not be fully visible and people may decide to play along since they are blinded by order/fear.



Actually you must understand that your living in UK blinds you, since it is one the most lawful countries that ever existed. Not everything can/should be settled by law and you are mixing law and goodness that are two separate things. Especially since even the best law can cause bureaucracy or tradition and both can cause major suffering. Just because you can't relate to the mindset that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Why do you think the UK is one of the most lawful countries that ever existed? Why would living in the UK blind me if living where you do has not blinded you?
 

Avocado

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In the world do you mean? Most effective how? As in most adaptive to the world as we find it? Neutral Evil being pure evil?

Adaptive to the world as we find it. Interestingly, ruthless self interest is a requirement to gain the power necessary to create the change good characters want, but good characters are among the least likely to do what it takes to get the power they need and those willing to do what is necessary to acheive the power to create a perfect world are the least likely to do so.
 
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