Can there be chaotic good?

[Lark]

Adaptive to the world as we find it. Interestingly, ruthless self interest is a requirement to gain the power necessary to create the change good characters want, but good characters are among the least likely to do what it takes to get the power they need and those willing to do what is necessary to acheive the power to create a perfect world are the least likely to do so.

That whole idea reminds me of a lot of thinking from pretty much all progressive movements the world has known, liberalism during its revolutionary phase, socialism, communism, the rest.

Personally, I just think that corrupt means result in corrupted ends, the ends can never justify the means and that there isnt any ultimate end to speak of, its all means.

If you think of it like this, if you take a branch from a blossom tree and fashion it into a club you cant rightly expect it to produce blossoms again. No matter how long you wait for it to happen.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Why do you think the UK is one of the most lawful countries that ever existed? Why would living in the UK blind me if living where you do has not blinded you?

Well, compared to the most of the world over the last century or two UK is pretty linear country. There are no real problems with coups, it is expected that you should pay off your debts if you have them, economy is regulated with contracts, there aren't radical shift like banning private property altogether, official language is always English, constitution means something, there are no changes of currency, the country doesn't nationalize 25% of GDP literally over night with emergency law (and remakes the stock market in the process), getting awards for shooting judges and law enforcement is very unlikely, the borders don't change every generation, ..... my point is that you probably haven't experienced long term chaos on the most fundamental level. Even if we count in the Northern Ireland factor.



On the other hand I admit that I am making somewhat subjective judgement but I think that there is a certain logic behind my claims. Especially since UK is actually pretty "famous" country and therefore it isn't hard to know for what it stands in general. While if you are in UK you are more likely to be more focused on your domestic principles and spreading them since they are rated as superior due to stability in foundation. Since the factor "grass is greener somewhere else" is suppressed to some degree. There are crimes and scams but system stands without almost any fundamental changes from what I can see. Therefore you don't see clearly how a person can be Chaotic good. Perhaps I am wrong but I do think that chaos makes you more observant of the environment and flexible in judgement ... what reduces the "blindness factor" in most cases. Once long ago I was reading about how some of my people emigrated west and locals had to upgrade the laws since my people found plenty of holes to exploit or they made irrational decisions for which there was no legal counter, like building in national park. However no one checked on that because everyone presumed that the person got a special permission for this. While eating the animals from pet shop shocked some in Scandinavia ..... etc.

 

[Yuurei]

Most people are chaotic good. Chaotic is not what Joker fanboys think it is; ie "OMG syooooo random lol!" it just means that your actions do not constantly align with one extreme or the other but what you feel is the best in any given situation.

Most people are ambivalent to the world around them, they will not go out of their way to solve problems which don't effect them ( good) nor will they go out of their way to hinder others (evil) but in most cases, will try to right by others when it is convenient, or will put in effort to help those important them.

 

[Mole]

Positive disintegration is the path to our authentic self. And it is the positive disintegration of our psyche on the path to our authenticity.

And mbti is designed to avoid any psychological movement to our authentic self. Rather mbti is designed to fool gullible employees into working longer and more productively for employers.

And mbti fits the American religious belief that God shows his favour by bestowing prosperity. And work is the path to our salvation.

Not all of us share American values. Some of us don't live to work, rather we work to live.

 

[Coriolis]

It is possible. My country/culture is full of such people, which would type as various ExxPs, 7fixers and Sx doms. At the end of the day law may not be a good thing and if you have so many dictatorships in your national history as me it isn't hard to imagine how Chaotic Good would look like. What is logical outcome if goodness can't really be achieved through the law. Actually good chunk of the people that were saving other people during the Holocaust are probably Chaotic good or at least somewhere close to that box. Chaotic in many cases is just trashy term for "having balls in concrete situations".

Such behavior really isn't chaotic in the sense of being unpredictable. These people are often quite predictable, because even they will have following personal values which they follow with some consistency. The D&D definition of chaotic which considers it the opposite of lawful is thus not a standard definition. True chaotic good would be essentially random acts of kindness or generosity.

 

[Lark]

Well, compared to the most of the world over the last century or two UK is pretty linear country. There are no real problems with coups, it is expected that you should pay off your debts if you have them, economy is regulated with contracts, there aren't radical shift like banning private property altogether, official language is always English, constitution means something, there are no changes of currency, the country doesn't nationalize 25% of GDP literally over night with emergency law (and remakes the stock market in the process), getting awards for shooting judges and law enforcement is very unlikely, the borders don't change every generation, ..... my point is that you probably haven't experienced long term chaos on the most fundamental level. Even if we count in the Northern Ireland factor.



On the other hand I admit that I am making somewhat subjective judgement but I think that there is a certain logic behind my claims. Especially since UK is actually pretty "famous" country and therefore it isn't hard to know for what it stands in general. While if you are in UK you are more likely to be more focused on your domestic principles and spreading them since they are rated as superior due to stability in foundation. Since the factor "grass is greener somewhere else" is suppressed to some degree. There are crimes and scams but system stands without almost any fundamental changes from what I can see. Therefore you don't see clearly how a person can be Chaotic good. Perhaps I am wrong but I do think that chaos makes you more observant of the environment and flexible in judgement ... what reduces the "blindness factor" in most cases. Once long ago I was reading about how some of my people emigrated west and locals had to upgrade the laws since my people found plenty of holes to exploit or they made irrational decisions for which there was no legal counter, like building in national park. However no one checked on that because everyone presumed that the person got a special permission for this. While eating the animals from pet shop shocked some in Scandinavia ..... etc.

I dont think the truth of how bad things where pertaining to that particular factor is well known or remembered you know. Also the UK is very good at presenting falsehood through its media, to itself and abroad to others, in part I think it is what causes the immigration crisis across the world, people are firmly convinced of a better, easier, safer life elsewhere. If you study well the history of the british isles, not just the conflict in Ireland but also Scotland, Wales, even the industrial and labour history within England and the differences between the north and south of England, its not such a peaceable place as all that.

I'm not sure about the issue of chaotic good myself, its mainly why I ask the question to hear others thinking on the matter.

The points you make that I highlighted are very interesting and good ones. Although would the attitude towards the law that involves finding "holes to exploit" or "a work around" in order to serve your own interests better be the same as opposing laws altogether? Most of the people who I know who would operate that way, and there are many, I do think it is "on the rise" or "trending", would also use the law to full effect when it suits them too.

There is an aspect within this, that what is good is what in someones own interest whether it is lawful or not, leaves the way open for temptation to corruption or evil. Which I think is what someone else mentioned already in the same context as the ranger types in the DnD game (although I'm talking about the widest sense of the typology rather than just the game).

I do tend to think that the idea that the lawful and the good are synonymous can be mistaken, for a lot of reasons, not just that I think over time traditions, conventions and laws can "wax and wane" in their service of good, not just individual good or self interest but wider social or common good too. It could be the same "in the other direction" too. In which case there could be considerations about moderation or "going to extremes".

 

[Lark]

Most people are chaotic good. Chaotic is not what Joker fanboys think it is; ie "OMG syooooo random lol!" it just means that your actions do not constantly align with one extreme or the other but what you feel is the best in any given situation.

Most people are ambivalent to the world around them, they will not go out of their way to solve problems which don't effect them ( good) nor will they go out of their way to hinder others (evil) but in most cases, will try to right by others when it is convenient, or will put in effort to help those important them.

This is a very good observation, especially in the second part, perhaps people are "effortless good", ie when nothing is demanded of them or the "best" that can be expected is a kind of "live and let live". Although, I think maybe, would this make more people "neutral" or "true neutral"?

Also, I do think that the chaotic could definitely mean a lack of consistency or consistently aligning with anything, which is definitely commonplace and probably, perhaps, even normative, at least in some ways, to some people.

The degrees of organisation/disorganisation, planning (or perhaps I mean structure)/spontaneity, deliberation/accident could all be factors here when I think about it. I've only known one or two people in my life who I could say confidently "had a plan", if that makes sense. I dont mean planned a single choice, for instance like buying a car or a house, but a "plan for life". More often there's a lot of opposition to the very idea. Also, of the people who do talk positively about planning or imagine they "have a plan", I've probably only known one or two for which this was probably fact as opposed to aspirational or notional.

There is an aspect here too of what is "enduring", if the good that you do is "written in sand" and the bad "written in stone", I read some quote once about the good people do is interned with their bones or "dies with them" but the bad goes on and on afterwards. There are some people who I've known who've choosen to be wrong doers as a result. There's also people who I've known who have seriously professed a belief that "most things will be permitted" to anyone provided that they do not establish any legacies, traditions or anything likely to endure, which the preserve of "elites", the privileged or some kind of conspiracy. Also, this may be getting a little off topic, there's people who'll do anything at all provided that they are serving some sort of bigger purpose or longer term campaign of some sort. I definitely think that either perspective could be relatively true rather than a fact.

- - - Updated - - -

Positive disintegration is the path to our authentic self. And it is the positive disintegration of our psyche on the path to our authenticity.

Why do you say that? What does it mean?

 

[Lark]

Such behavior really isn't chaotic in the sense of being unpredictable. These people are often quite predictable, because even they will have following personal values which they follow with some consistency. The D&D definition of chaotic which considers it the opposite of lawful is thus not a standard definition. True chaotic good would be essentially random acts of kindness or generosity.

That is interesting, in that case it is about consistency.

I do think in some ways that the lawful alignment means orderly alignment.

This is definitely what was understood by the Gamesworkshop guys when they were influced by DnD and created Warhammer and 40K, in their world building chaos was evil and order/lawful was good.

Which of course has lead to A LOT of the mythos about 40K being a miserable, awful, tyrannical future in which there is only war and the best people can hope for is to die in there service of the empire, even the best stories of people challenging that narrative usually end up in their going down the route of chaos eventually and winding up as some kind of monster or Cthulu demon.

The thing is while all these things are "games" and fictional, I know people for whom they are a little more than that. For me they are really thought provoking but for others I've seen it go in other directions, like extremism of different varieties for instance.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Such behavior really isn't chaotic in the sense of being unpredictable. These people are often quite predictable, because even they will have following personal values which they follow with some consistency. The D&D definition of chaotic which considers it the opposite of lawful is thus not a standard definition. True chaotic good would be essentially random acts of kindness or generosity.

I presume that you went through my other posts in this thread.
Perhaps in my first post I wasn't clear, but here there are evidently this random act of kindness. Especially in cases when law forbids helping others and chaotic good does it anyway because they just felt like doing this. While others were too scared of the law do something about this or they were the law. Also thinking that most of our freedom fighters had some very concrete agenda is false since they were simply the counter force to all of the invaders. Also you should take a look at wider picture which is that my country currently has 6th political systems in the last 100 years (and with many large change inside them). What opens quite a few worm cans. In normal economy it is normal that you make a career and money plan for your life, while here this is almost pointless since if there is a economic reset every few years or decades then making a plan for yourself is probably a phantasy. Therefore if there is chaos in economy it will be in everything else. I mean I am still pretty young guy and in the meantime my country had 3 currencies and 4th is on the way. (unless we ditch EU in a snap decision)


We wanted to become EU member exactly to get out of this circle that lasts since the crash of Roman empire. While chaos is simply adaptation to everything that happened here and therefore you can have perfectly good people that are chaotic in behavior. Not to mention that we lived between 1102 and 1991 without our own state and we deliberately mocked the foreign law in various creative ways, what turned into national sport through centuries. Once I came across local thread about Croatian scores on enneagram and half of people had e1 below 35%.

I dont think the truth of how bad things where pertaining to that particular factor is well known or remembered you know. Also the UK is very good at presenting falsehood through its media, to itself and abroad to others, in part I think it is what causes the immigration crisis across the world, people are firmly convinced of a better, easier, safer life elsewhere. If you study well the history of the british isles, not just the conflict in Ireland but also Scotland, Wales, even the industrial and labour history within England and the differences between the north and south of England, its not such a peaceable place as all that.

I'm not sure about the issue of chaotic good myself, its mainly why I ask the question to hear others thinking on the matter.

The points you make that I highlighted are very interesting and good ones. Although would the attitude towards the law that involves finding "holes to exploit" or "a work around" in order to serve your own interests better be the same as opposing laws altogether? Most of the people who I know who would operate that way, and there are many, I do think it is "on the rise" or "trending", would also use the law to full effect when it suits them too.

There is an aspect within this, that what is good is what in someones own interest whether it is lawful or not, leaves the way open for temptation to corruption or evil. Which I think is what someone else mentioned already in the same context as the ranger types in the DnD game (although I'm talking about the widest sense of the typology rather than just the game).

I do tend to think that the idea that the lawful and the good are synonymous can be mistaken, for a lot of reasons, not just that I think over time traditions, conventions and laws can "wax and wane" in their service of good, not just individual good or self interest but wider social or common good too. It could be the same "in the other direction" too. In which case there could be considerations about moderation or "going to extremes".

I am simply saying that in my culture Chaotic good is the force that can be noticed fairly easy. As well as other chaotic types, since our history made us this way.


I understand that UK doesn't meet your standards but regardless of that it is still one of the most advanced countries around. The difference between UK and Croatia are becoming smaller since we are at the moment making somewhat better decisions but when compared with stereotypical 3rd world where billions live UK is super advanced and moral over the last few decades.

 

[Coriolis]

I presume that you went through my other posts in this thread.
Perhaps in my first post I wasn't clear, but here there are evidently this random act of kindness. Especially in cases when law forbids helping others and chaotic good does it anyway because they just felt like doing this. While others were too scared of the law do something about this or they were the law. Also thinking that most of our freedom fighters had some very concrete agenda is false since they were simply the counter force to all of the invaders. Also you should take a look at wider picture which is that my country currently has 6th political systems in the last 100 years (and with many large change inside them). What opens quite a few worm cans. In normal economy it is normal that you make a career and money plan for your life, while here this is almost pointless since if there is a economic reset every few years or decades then making a plan for yourself is probably a phantasy. Therefore if there is chaos in economy it will be in everything else. I mean I am still pretty young guy and in the meantime my country had 3 currencies and 4th is on the way. (unless we ditch EU in a snap decision).

I was taking issue with the general notion mentioned by several members here of chaotic being the opposite of lawful. That is a somewhat arbitrary gaming construct. In a chaotic environment such as you describe, much will be unpredictable. I suspect, though, that someone who will go out of their way to help someone on one occasion will do so again on similar occasions. If you know such a person well or get to see them operate over weeks and months, they will likely demonstrate some consistency in their behavior. Circumstances may seem random, but their responses will all come from the same place - the same values and motivations. In any case, I am not making a commentary on the political situation in any part of the world, but rather on the applicability of this particular gaming distinction to real life situations.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I was taking issue with the general notion mentioned by several members here of chaotic being the opposite of lawful. That is a somewhat arbitrary gaming construct. In a chaotic environment such as you describe, much will be unpredictable. I suspect, though, that someone who will go out of their way to help someone on one occasion will do so again on similar occasions. If you know such a person well or get to see them operate over weeks and months, they will likely demonstrate some consistency in their behavior. Circumstances may seem random, but their responses will all come from the same place - the same values and motivations. In any case, I am not making a commentary on the political situation in any part of the world, but rather on the applicability of this particular gaming distinction to real life situations.

Ok, because I am simply trying say that for me Chaotic good is something that isn't contradictory. (what was the topic of the thread)


Plus there is my other example that went under the radar, which is that among comedians there surely should be a fair number of Chaotic good. Actually finding people that are 100% chaotic or 100% lawful isn't an easy task.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I never wanted to divert this into politics but that simply came out as a part of talk about culture. Since I am pretty sure that various cultures have different ratios of alignments as well as typological scores. I know people that fit the profile of chaotic good, perhaps even my own ENFP mother is one of them.

 

[Lark]

I am simply saying that in my culture Chaotic good is the force that can be noticed fairly easy. As well as other chaotic types, since our history made us this way.


I understand that UK doesn't meet your standards but regardless of that it is still one of the most advanced countries around. The difference between UK and Croatia are becoming smaller since we are at the moment making somewhat better decisions but when compared with stereotypical 3rd world where billions live UK is super advanced and moral over the last few decades.

That's why I find all the post-communist countries so fascinating. Have you ever seen a BBC documentary called Hypernormalization? Its very interesting, to me as an outsider, there's some parallels with the NI situation but I am sure you'd consider it completely different.

I dont think its my standards particularly, I am much better travelled than some people I know, visiting states in the central EU, I've been the heart of power in the EU in Brussels and visited the home of one of the founders, also I've been the US and studied cultures globally but I dont think I'm that exceptional. The UK is different to a post-communist state (I'd consider those states to definitely be 2nd world rather than 3rd world BTW) for sure but the UK is very good at manipulating appearances, very much and tells lies about itself all the time to its citizens and to the world at large.

The leader of the opposition for instance has refused to join in debates with the leader of the present government as the networks they wish to use are in his view biased, his party has suggested that one of the things driving Brexit is that the conservatives militant tendency has convinced the public the UK is more like Greece than it is like the fifth largest economy in G20.

Those are modern/recent impressions too. All the killings from the partition of Ireland and the modern outbreak of violence have been extremely under stated and kept out of public attention, the persecutions during the strikes in the eighties (when Thatcher was supporting the union Solidarity in Poland in its struggle with the communists!) are the same, people were arrested at that time who have been in prison for lengthy sentences, often longer than killers, because they needed to be seen to be taking action and cracking down on unruly elements.

It happens the world over and I'm sure you've more insight than most into how states can misbehave and prey on their peoples and so its a bit surprising the high opinions you've got of other states.

 

[Lark]

I never wanted to divert this into politics but that simply came out as a part of talk about culture. Since I am pretty sure that various cultures have different ratios of alignments as well as typological scores. I know people that fit the profile of chaotic good, perhaps even my own ENFP mother is one of them.

I think its grand, it happens anyway.

I'm not even sure if there are any MBTI or Enneagram comparisons with the DnD grids, there could be, I mean I've seen some brilliant ones which use characters from film or TV shows or super heroes and Marvel or DC so there's bound to be.

 

[Lark]

Ok, because I am simply trying say that for me Chaotic good is something that isn't contradictory. (what was the topic of the thread)


Plus there is my other example that went under the radar, which is that among comedians there surely should be a fair number of Chaotic good. Actually finding people that are 100% chaotic or 100% lawful isn't an easy task.

I dont think its contradictory but some of the later gamebooks in DnD suggest it is and use the ideas from Kant's philosophy to make the point.

On that score there's been a few good posts made in the thread, I'm happy to consider it both as it pertains to the DnD books, as that's where I got the ideas from originally but I also want to discuss it in the broadest possible sense too.

Like I think there is such a thing as Chaotic Good, sometimes I think its the only possible good when the context is lawful evil, but I think its small scale, often personal, its good is not that enduring or it deteriorates quickly in contrast to the lawful good but I think both have their short comings.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I dont think its contradictory but some of the later gamebooks in DnD suggest it is and use the ideas from Kant's philosophy to make the point.

On that score there's been a few good posts made in the thread, I'm happy to consider it both as it pertains to the DnD books, as that's where I got the ideas from originally but I also want to discuss it in the broadest possible sense too.

Like I think there is such a thing as Chaotic Good, sometimes I think its the only possible good when the context is lawful evil, but I think its small scale, often personal, its good is not that enduring or it deteriorates quickly in contrast to the lawful good but I think both have their short comings.

Well, the whole DnD is pretty relativistic if you dig deeper into it. Who is to say that lawful evil is truly lawful evil ... I mean that depends on which set of laws you are judging. The same can be said about Chaotic good. Which are basically positive tricksters and will you consider them good or bad is actually fairly subjective. Even in Lawful good you can have problems, there is law, there is goodness but if there is a deficit of competency everything goes to hell. Even true evil can come in handy if it destroys a bigger evil.

 

[Neal Caffreynated]

Well if you follow the D&D system there can be chaotic good and imo its a good thing. People who think outside the box will have more creative ideas and they won't be blinded by rules, laws and morality. They won't do something good just to help the social community and bc they have to (for moral or social reasons) but according to their own moral compass and for self-fulfillment.

Still I don't think D&D is meant to be taken very seriously Like I’m not sure if there are Lawful good or Chaotic Evil people out there -the world isn’t so black and white fortunately

 

[Kanra Jest]

Well if you follow the D&D system there can be chaotic good and imo its a good thing. People who think outside the box will have more creative ideas and they won't be blinded by rules, laws and morality. They won't do something good just to help the social community and bc they have to (for moral or social reasons) but according to their own moral compass and for self-fulfillment.

Still I don't think D&D is meant to be taken very seriously Like I’m not sure if there are Lawful good or Chaotic Evil people out there -the world isn’t so black and white fortunately

DnD ain't black and white, sir! I shall have you know that i am a proud True/Chaotic Neutral special snowflake, give it a fair shade will ya?

 

[Forever]

I would argue that most people are lawful neutral. Most people act on their own self interest or perceived self interest. Following the law leads to a comfortable lifestyle or rather a “safe” if comfortable is not the right word. And people can be prompted to be good or evil if they have to.

To say most are chaotic good doesn’t make sense, there would be no norm to rebel against, if they are the norm.

 

[The Cat]

DnD ain't black and white, sir! I shall have you know that i am a proud True/Chaotic Neutral special snowflake, give it a fair shade will ya?

Chaotic Neutral! Raise your Glass!