ManipuLation

[Coriolis]

That's essentially the point - manipulation by itself is not the problem. But when someone manipulates you into doing stuff that are illogical and harmful to you or other people, you have the responsibility to react, not to expect someone else to take the lead and save you.

Your example in high school isn't something I relate to, tbh. I see little point of not expressing my opinion, I'm not even capable of keeping it to myself, but ironically, this has never caused me too much loss, quite the contrary.

I prefer not to manipulate others, which to me implies a degree of deceit that I find unacceptable. When I have done it, it has often been for what I saw as the good of the other person, e.g. I would sometimes do things to get my mother to keep up with her therapy and be more independent when she was recovering from a stroke, and direct appeals to reason were unsuccessful. I felt no guilt over it, though, because I had tried the direct approach first, and I knew it would help her in the end.

 

[Lib]

However my experience taught me that often very negative opinions about concrete people is better to keep for yourself, if the whole thing isn't too big deal. I know a hundred ways how to take persons ego apart and doing that isn't smart if you don't have the desire to pick up the pieces afterwards.

Nobody says that one should share all their opinions, some of which could be just temporary impressions or stress reactions. But there are situations where tearing someone's ego apart is your only option to reason with them.

I prefer not to manipulate others, which to me implies a degree of deceit that I find unacceptable. When I have done it, it has often been for what I saw as the good of the other person, e.g. I would sometimes do things to get my mother to keep up with her therapy and be more independent when she was recovering from a stroke, and direct appeals to reason were unsuccessful. I felt no guilt over it, though, because I had tried the direct approach first, and I knew it would help her in the end.

I see your point yet mostly disagree. Mostly, because any communication where one person approaches another for some reason, there is some level of manipulation, intentional or not. But my issue is in the notion that you have to decide for your mother. I don't judge you or anything, just my own idea of choice. I might have done the same in your place.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Nobody says that one should share all their opinions, some of which could be just temporary impressions or stress reactions. But there are situations where tearing someone's ego apart is your only option to reason with them.

True, but this shouldn't be used as the first solution that comes to mind. Since that would going in the direction of saying that you seem to have a silly typo in the thread name, since you probably didn't got Phobik's observation. People can blow up on these kinds of observations and therefore you should know when the situation is right for critical thoughts.

 

[Lib]

True, but this shouldn't be used as the first solution that comes to mind. Since that would going in the direction of saying that you seem to have a silly typo in the thread name, since you probably didn't got Phobik's observation. People can blow up on these kinds of observations and therefore you should know when the situation is right for critical thoughts.

Hahaha, I hadn't noticed the typo. I though they meant something else. It wasn't a blow up, though.

 

[Forever]

L

 

[Virtual ghost]

Hahaha, I hadn't noticed the typo. I though they meant something else. It wasn't a blow up, though.

Obviously, but the point was that under right circumstances you can make the person go "boom" with this kind of remark. I had many chances to be around emotionally unstable people and therefore I learned to adapt my approach.

 

[Lib]

Obviously, but the point was that under right circumstances you can make the person go "boom" with this kind of remark. I had many chances to be around emotionally unstable people and therefore I learned to adapt my approach.

I'm convinced in phobik's ability to take a joke. And I rarely communicate to emotionally unstable people.

 

[Lib]

Obviously, but the point was that under right circumstances you can make the person go "boom" with this kind of remark. I had many chances to be around emotionally unstable people and therefore I learned to adapt my approach.

That point of yours actually made me think about my behavior IRL and the fact that I'm rarely afraid of others' reactions. It's odd, a little bit disturbing. But I'm not so chatty IRL, so I rarely engage in such exchanges unless I have some idea of the person's general behavior. People confuse me.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That point of yours actually made me think about my behavior IRL and the fact that I'm rarely afraid of others' reactions. It's odd, a little bit disturbing. But I'm not so chatty IRL, so I rarely engage in such exchanges unless I have some idea of the person's general behavior. People confuse me.

From what I understand you are from much more reserved culture than I so in my case it is much more socially acceptable to make a scene out of nothing. Therefore I have developed an instinct to skip such situations, since I don't want to be a part of this. Since this is increasing my frustration level even if people take arguing/drama as a social ritual, they have an argument and then few minutes later: laugh, drinking, best friends. If you ever saw a typical Italian movie you should get the picture. While for me the point of arguing is to cripple the person emotionally, so that they don't provoke.

 

[Maou]

I didn't post in my original post on how I see manipulation in myself. I tend to take a firm stance on not manipulating (to the best of my ability) anything. I rather communicate directly. I also have a keen sense of people who try to manipulate me. I am skilled at maneuvering out of people's control, while turning it against them if they have ill will against me like some form of mental thai chi.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Metis]

How are most of his examples manipulation?

In the case of the whining kid saying "I need ____", he thinks that's an example of manipulation at its worst? Maybe he's being facetious there.

 

[The Cat]

How are most of his examples manipulation?

In the case of the whining kid saying "I need ____", he thinks that's an example of the worst kind of manipulation?

How aren't they examples of manipulation?

Ever seen a kid pitch a fit and the hoops many parents jump through to make the madness stop? I think that's what he's referring to, but I don't know for 100% Also manipulation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Metis]

How aren't they examples of manipulation?

Seriously, how do you see those first examples as manipulation, if you agree with him? You come to my door, and I invite you in--and he says I'm manipulating you by inviting you in, and then again by offering you a seat. All of those could be put into a subtext of manipulation, sure, as could your coming to my door, but without being placed in that subtext, how do you view them as being manipulative in and of themselves?

Ever seen a kid pitch a fit and the hoops many parents jump through to make the madness stop? I think that's what he's referring to, but I don't know for 100%

That's definitely not "manipulating at the worst". I have definitely seen people allow their kids to manipulate them like this, and sometimes the manipulation gets worse as a result (but astonishingly, not always). But I think he must have meant "at the worst" hyperbolically.

Also manipulation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That's a different matter.

 

[The Cat]

Seriously, how do you see those first examples as manipulation, if you agree with him? You come to my door, and I invite you in--and he says I'm manipulating you by inviting you in, and then again by offering you a seat. All of those could be put into a subtext of manipulation, sure, as could your coming to my door, but without being placed in that subtext, how do you view them as being manipulative in and of themselves?



That's definitely not "manipulating at the worst". I have definitely seen people allow their kids to manipulate them like this, and sometimes the manipulation gets worse as a result (but astonishingly, not always). But I think he must have meant "at the worst" hyperbolically.



That's a different matter.

Seriously how do you not? You're free to disagree of course, that's entirely up to you. But if you're looking for a more in depth debate on it right now, I'm afraid you're liable to be disappointed as I'm not getting into in depth debates right now. ^_^ You're free to state your case, and I'll respond when I'm more inclined/have more time to get into it if you like. But if you're putting the onus on me to explain my position, rather than you explaining yours. Well it's largely a matter of whether you'd like to go first or not. If not....You're gonna be waiting at least through tomorrow for me to get back with you.

I hope this doesnt come off as cross. I assure I'm not. In any case always a pleasure Metis. Feel free to leave your points of your argument, or wait. Or something else ^_^ TTFN

 

[Metis]

Seriously how do you not? You're free to disagree of course, that's entirely up to you. But if you're looking for a more in depth debate on it right now, I'm afraid you're liable to be disappointed as I'm not getting into in depth debates right now. ^_^ You're free to state your case, and I'll respond when I'm more inclined/have more time to get into it if you like. But if you're putting the onus on me to explain my position, rather than you explaining yours. Well it's largely a matter of whether you'd like to go first or not. If not....You're gonna be waiting at least through tomorrow for me to get back with you.

I hope this doesnt come off as cross. I assure I'm not. In any case always a pleasure Metis. Feel free to leave your points of your argument, or wait. Or something else ^_^ TTFN

 

[The Cat]

It's Halloween, my busiest night of the year. That's all. I'm typing this as I'm heading out. So I don't have time to give it (the debate/conversation) the attention it deserves. Personally I think it'll be a great discussion when we have it, and I'm looking forwards to it, but I cant have it tonight. That's all I meant. ^_^ If I seem curt, that is only because I'm on a schedule of sorts tonight, and don't want to get pulled away in the middle of a discussion. ^_^

- - - Updated - - -

Further I apologize if I do seem curt or rude in any way, that is most certainly not my intention ^_^

 

[Metis]

It's Halloween, my busiest night of the year.

No need for further explanation. Go haunt 'em.

 

[Luminous]

Jack is clearly just being manipulative.

 

[Lib]

How aren't they examples of manipulation?

Ever seen a kid pitch a fit and the hoops many parents jump through to make the madness stop? I think that's what he's referring to, but I don't know for 100% Also manipulation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I have no other concerns but: Are you manipulating a person into the right thing? How would one know that? Even if you have person's best interest at heart, you could still be wrong about the right thing.