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ManipuLation

Coriolis

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I object to it too, still doesnt change that its a thing. Run from it or learn from it. Fight it and deny it. Like it or not believe it or not, just like me, your opinions will do little to change reality. Only color it. I wish things were different. But as theyre not. I dont seem much value in throwing someone else off the cliff for something I have the capacity for myself. Which I believe EVERYONE does. Intentionally unintentionally. I've been on both sides. I've been manipulated, and I've learned it as a consequence. But just like this conversation is a manipulation, this thread, the forum, the whole of civilization; its all a manipulation. People trying to make things just a little bit more like they want it for them and theirs.
My opinions, and more to the point, the actions they motivate, will change my reality, and that is my first concern. I will throw someone off that cliff - or at least execute a fairly strict containment policy - if I find they have been trying to manipulate me. This is all quite timely as I have had to take this course of action at work recently. Of course I blame myself first for taking so long to see through the manipulation, but now that the lid is off, no holds barred.
 

The Cat

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My opinions, and more to the point, the actions they motivate, will change my reality, and that is my first concern. I will throw someone off that cliff - or at least execute a fairly strict containment policy - if I find they have been trying to manipulate me. This is all quite timely as I have had to take this course of action at work recently. Of course I blame myself first for taking so long to see through the manipulation, but now that the lid is off, no holds barred.


That. Is a very good point.

I'm sometimes a bit jealous of folk with the ability to be so certain in that regard.

I don't think you should blame yourself though, but then again if I took that advice for myself, I'd probably be a sunnier smiler irl. ^_^
 

Luminous

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Merriam-Webster is good enough for me. I am going with the definition that applies to people, based on your OP.

Here's what Merriam-Webster says:

manipulate verb
ma·nip·u·late | \mə-ˈni-pyə-ˌlāt \
manipulated; manipulating
Definition of manipulate
transitive verb

1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
manipulate a pencil
manipulate a machine
2a : to manage or utilize skillfully
quantify our data and manipulate it statistically
— S. L. Payne
b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
being used and manipulated by the knowing men around him
— New Republic
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : DOCTOR
suspected that the police reports were manipulated
— Evelyn G. Cruickshanks


It's extremely important that discussing this, we keep in mind which definitions we are using.

I agree with what Jack said, with the way he defined the word. We all do things in hopes of getting certain reactions from others or obtaining certain outcomes with them. But that doesn't imply that we are being unfair or insidious. Parents manipulate their children all the time this way. And if they didn't, they wouldn't be parenting. Lark took what Jack said as amorality which is a complete misrepresentation.

Now, if we use the MW definition that includes being unfair or insidious, well, there is something wrong with it morally in my view. But we are not perfect beings and should be able to admit that we are quite likely capable of manipulating under some circumstances. One may not steal if one has no need to do so, but what if one is starving? Stealing a loaf of bread may be irresistible then.
 

Coriolis

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Here's what Merriam-Webster says:

It's extremely important that discussing this, we keep in mind which definitions we are using.
I would like a dollar for every time I have made that point, especially in the politics subforum when people have been carelessly tossing around labels like "feminism", "liberal", "racist", etc.

Here I focused on the definition involving people, as I stated, because of the nature of the OP. Here, that is definition 2a, and the nearly identical 3.
 

Luminous

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I would like a dollar for every time I have made that point

Yes! How about two dollars, and we split it? We'd be rich. Let's make it a forum rule! ;) (just kidding, of course)
 

The Cat

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Yes! How about two dollars, and we split it? We'd be rich. Let's make it a forum rule! ;) (just kidding, of course)

I'll take a 5% commission, after taxes. And then use it to throw us a party in my money bin. No agent is gonna beat that rate or payoff. You can check all of Hollywoo.
 

Luminous

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I'll take a 5% commission, after taxes. And then use it to throw us a party in my money bin. No agent is gonna beat that rate or payoff. You can check all of Hollywoo.

It's a deal!
 

Virtual ghost

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How would you define manipulation?

Making people do things without them realizing fully what happened.

Do you condemn it per se or the intentions are important?

I think that context is even more important.
Not every manipulation makes the world a worse place and the line between manipulation and persuasiveness not only that it is a thin one but it is also a subjective one.

Do people who have been manipulated must be held responsible for their actions?

Not if they do their job right. :wink:
 

Tilt

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Making people do things without them realizing fully what happened.



I think that context is even more important.
Not every manipulation makes the world a worse place and the line between manipulation and persuasiveness not only that it is a thin one but it is also a subjective one.



Not if they do their job right. :wink:

I have had this conversation with people several times:
Me: Remember that one time....yea, I manipulated you.
Person: yeah, possibly but I didn't see it that way.
Me: :huh: oh ok. I am surprised that you're not mad.
Person: Why would I be? I trust that you had my best interest at heart and I also benefited from it. So there is no reason to be mad at you.
Me: OK. Fine. :dry: :laugh:

And then the person, usually IXTJ, goes into the philosophy and purpose of manipulation and then we both laugh about it.
 

Lib

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Not if they do their job right. :wink:
What do you mean with it?


Most of the posts so far kinda miss this last point about the victims 'fault' but I find it very important. The thing is that, I'm a huge fan of Dostoevsky, and one of my favorite books if Demons. It tells the story about one guy who manipulates a bunch of others into killing one of their group. There is no specific reason for the killing other than his plan to bind these guys with guilt, so he could use them as puppets from then on. His logic is that if he could make them kill because he convinced them, not because they had any real facts to justify the need for it, they will be absolved from guilt as long as he takes all the blame. Thus, he would be able to manipulate them even further.

I think everybody is responsible for their actions. Being manipulated is also a matter of choice, but it doesn't excuse the manipulators in any way.
 

Virtual ghost

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What do you mean with it?


Most of the posts so far kinda miss this last point about the victims 'fault' but I find this one very important. The thing is that, I'm a huge fan of Dostoevsky, and one of my favorite books if Demons. It tells the story about one guy who manipulates a bunch of others into killing one of their group. There is no specific reason for the killing other than his plan to bind these guys with guilt, so he could use them as puppets from then on. His logic is that if he could make them kill because he convinced that's important, not because they had any real facts to justify the need for it, they will be absolved from guilt as long as his takes all the blame. Thus, he would be able to manipulate them even further.

I think everybody is responsible for their actions. Being manipulated is also a matter of choice, but it doesn't excuse the manipulators in any way.


I think that it is obvious that it is a joke.


But if we want things honestly I think you are pushing things too far. Being manipulated often isn't at all a matter of choice since this presumes that you always know everything about situation, what often simply isn't the case. Also not every manipulation is about life and death issues.
 

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For a more serious post, the best manipulators are the ones who know how to spin a narrative which coincides with reality. They are able to mold the facts in such a way to amp up someone's fears and anxieties while also giving them what they are so desperately lacking, especially emotionally. With that ammunition, the manipulator leads the the target into thinking it's their own idea/all within their own control/agency...but people can never quite put a finger on it.

EDIT: And the smart ones know to do it sparingly or people will eventually catch on.
 
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Lib

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I think that it is obvious that it is a joke.


But if we want things honestly I think you are pushing things too far. Being manipulated often isn't at all a matter of choice since this presumes that you always know everything about situation, what often simply isn't the case. Also not every manipulation is about life and death issues.
Isn't it though? Every time I have being manipulated, something felt off. Of course, these were not life or death situations, except for one, in which I reacted. I think that's the usual problem - someone could be manipulating you in a way that you could see that it's manipulation, yet not being able to measure the true implications of it.
 

Forever

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I think manipulation is fine if it's use in a way to ward/deflect others from oneself. You appear and show that what you want others to see is to trust you and leave you to your own business. Mild manipulation is fine. You ultimately allow reality and your actions to be the true teacher. I believe truly good intentions to benefit oneself and others end up working out anyway if that's what you truly want. Of course misunderstanding may result, but whatever.

Now interesting about manipulating someone to fall in love with you is more grey. While in an ideal world, our feelings would effectively communicate telling this person has the values and perspective I would be most compatible with in life, but it isn't always the case. And for many people, not many are really in psychic, ESP, soulmate/twin-flame belief system. Some men are simply into hot women. If the desire is being met, that isn't bad manipulation. So to be quite explicit, if a woman makes herself more attractive with make-up and it gets the guy and it's her goal to get in bed with him. I don't see that as an issue, as long as there isn't any underlying strings attached.

However, a lot of people don't end up being that simple and is where my main issues come with manipulation. To intend a unforeseen goal that the other party won't realize until most likely he/she is caught up in a moment and his/her actions are limited perhaps limiting to all/most choices as harmful or hard to discern which is and which is not. For as if maybe the woman really also wants this man's child but also guilt-trips him into taking of that child even though she never shared such statements with them.
 

Coriolis

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What do you mean with it?


Most of the posts so far kinda miss this last point about the victims 'fault' but I find it very important. The thing is that, I'm a huge fan of Dostoevsky, and one of my favorite books if Demons. It tells the story about one guy who manipulates a bunch of others into killing one of their group. There is no specific reason for the killing other than his plan to bind these guys with guilt, so he could use them as puppets from then on. His logic is that if he could make them kill because he convinced them, not because they had any real facts to justify the need for it, they will be absolved from guilt as long as he takes all the blame. Thus, he would be able to manipulate them even further.

I think everybody is responsible for their actions. Being manipulated is also a matter of choice, but it doesn't excuse the manipulators in any way.
This is just another form of victim blaming. That being said, I heartily endorse the idea that victims can take measures to avoid being victimized, and I have been criticised for saying it. That's just risk analysis. Do we expect the elderly couple to recognize the con artist when he comes knocking on their door? The answer to that is my answer overall. It would be great if they did, but often that is expecting a bit much. As you said, the con artist or other kind of manipulator is always responsible for his/her own actions.
 

Lib

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This is just another form of victim blaming. That being said, I heartily endorse the idea that victims can take measures to avoid being victimized, and I have been criticised for saying it. That's just risk analysis. Do we expect the elderly couple to recognize the con artist when he comes knocking on their door? The answer to that is my answer overall. It would be great if they did, but often that is expecting a bit much. As you said, the con artist or other kind of manipulator is always responsible for his/her own actions.
That's a good point. It's hard to measure the quilt but could someone participate in an evil deed and have no guilt at all? In most such situations the one being manipulated must cross a certain line blindly. IME, it feels like dependency on a certain perspective, which makes one feel more safe, happy, loved or righteous. The manipulator always binds those two things - the perspective they want to establish with some personal meaning for the victim. They reaffirm this connection on several occasions so you could be convinced that the connection is working. Something like cognitive therapy.
 

Virtual ghost

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Isn't it though? Every time I have being manipulated, something felt off. Of course, these were not life or death situations, except for one, in which I reacted. I think that's the usual problem - someone could be manipulating you in a way that you could see that it's manipulation, yet not being able to measure the true implications of it.


Yes, but that is the actual problem here, perception. The real issue are those situations in which you were manipulated but you didn't see it that way, even if the other person played their cards deliberately. Not every manipulation is based on BS and therefore it is easily detectable if you have a brain. I mean not every manipulation has to end with win/lose. In other words I often think carefully about what I am going to say in important conversations and judging from the possible/likely responses in which direction I will go and with which arguments. What means that my communication isn't fully genuine in such situations but that doesn't mean that I did something wrong to this person. I have even masterminded the whole situations so that the people see the best of me, so that I get ahead in reputation or whatever, but that doesn't mean there was real damage. I mean I didn't finish the high school at the top of my class just through pure classic "hard work".
 

Lib

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Yes, but that is the actual problem here, perception. The real issue are those situations in which you were manipulated but you didn't see it that way, even if the other person played their cards deliberately. Not every manipulation is based on BS and therefore it is easily detectable if you have a brain. I mean not every manipulation has to end with win/lose. In other words I often think carefully about what I am going to say in important conversations and judging from the possible/likely responses in which direction I will go and with which arguments. What means that my communication isn't fully genuine in such situations but that doesn't mean that I did something wrong to this person. I have even masterminded the whole situations so that the people see the best of me, so that I get ahead in reputation or whatever, but that doesn't mean there was real damage. I mean I didn't finish the high school at the top of my class just through pure classic "hard work".
That's essentially the point - manipulation by itself is not the problem. But when someone manipulates you into doing stuff that are illogical and harmful to you or other people, you have the responsibility to react, not to expect someone else to take the lead and save you.

 

Virtual ghost

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That's essentially the point - manipulation by itself is not the problem. But when someone manipulates you into doing stuff that are illogical and harmful to you or other people, you have the responsibility to react, not to expect someone else to take the lead and save you.


Then we basically agree.

However my experience taught me that often very negative opinions about concrete people is better to keep for yourself, if the whole thing isn't too big deal. I know a hundred ways how to take persons ego apart and doing that isn't smart if you don't have the desire to pick up the pieces afterwards.
 
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