Which is more difficult to live with?

[Earl Grey]

And why?

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'm very able to forgive, but not as able to forgive myself, which I guess is synonymous with being forgiven.
It can be a pretty brutal feeling at times and has a cyclical energy to it, almost like picking a nearly healed scab off, reopening a wound unnecessarily.

I don't know what the opposite feels like, but it sounds a bit naive and bitter and cruel, maybe even narcissistic, to be able to be forgiven but not forgive, and since ignorance is bliss, I'm gonna say that my way of existence is more difficult.
But what else would you expect from a 4.

 

[Lib]

I barely believe in the concept of forgiveness tbh. No one is forgiven or absolved from the consequences of their actions. Who am I to forgive, and who is anyone to forgive me for that matter? I think the worst would be to know that you're guilty and not being given redemption through punishment. Must admit that I absorbed this idea from Crime and Punishment. To me forgiveness is to get what's coming to you.

 

[Lark]

I dont know but I'm able to live well without forgiving. The people I have grievances or grudges against deserve it. I've I could visit revenge not just on them but on seven generations of their family (and friends even) I would.

I'm prepared to pay for that sin too.

 

[ThoughtBubbles]

Unable to forgive because it poisons your heart and you become embittered.

If someone can't forgive you, yes, you may lose a relationship with that person. But in a certain sense it's more their problem. You can still learn to forgive yourself.

 

[Firebird 8118]

Unable to forgive, because it feels like walking around with chains that I've wrapped around my own heart... it sucks, but I'm stubborn enough to keep them wrapped around until time sees those chains erode and break off on their own.

 

[tinker683]

I've never been able to fully forgive my ex, but I've wallpapered over the hurt and anger and have more or less gotten on with my life. So living without forgiving someone I have found is easy.

So I'd have to go with not being forgiven, though that too depends on who hasn't forgiven me. Some people aren't worth my care or concern.

 

[Maou]

I think its harder to live unforgiven. Because its leaving rooms, and never being able to go back into them. As opposed to not opening any doors, and you keep on walking.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Does not compute.

 

[EJCC]

Being unable to forgive is easier, because ime, anger > shame. That said, you can get used to some pretty awful feelings if you live with them for long enough.

 

[ceecee]

Don't really grasp the idea of forgiveness so I can't answer the poll.

 

[Kanra Jest]

I want to be able to forgive because ultimately we can't effect others perceptions of us anyway. Let them waste their time with the burden. I have no interest

And when I say forgive, I also say myself. For I can be my own worst enemy.

If one remains unmoved within, no one can truly destroy you.

 

[Bush]

At least with being unable to be forgiven, you have some control because it's your own actions that determine whether you have things that you need to be forgiven for.

Being unable to forgive places too much negativity outside of your control, because people always and forever can and do screw up. In its favor though, it's not your psyche on the line.

 

[Metis]

Don't really grasp the idea of forgiveness so I can't answer the poll.

Likewise.

In a practical sense, as in forgiving a material debt, it makes sense. I lent money to a friend a while back, knowing that money lent to friends or family is usually money that won't come back. I don't mind whether I'll see that money returned--she's not the type to repeat offend, at least so far, and I expected that it would be hard for her to repay it, due to her constant expenses. I could say I've forgiven her that debt.

In a religious sense: If you believe that you can take metaphysical payment or revenge, such as sending the person to hell, and you freely elect not to, that could be forgiveness. In Christianity, at least in the Christian denominations with which I'm familiar, that isn't possible. They don't have any say in whether the Christian God allows the person to be punished or not; it's a unilateral decision made by that God. Forgiveness, in that case, is the prerogative of the God alone. The "Our Father" / "Lord's Prayer" refers to interpersonal forgiveness, but ultimately, Christians don't have any spiritual recourse against those they forgive--they can't send them to hell or block them from going to heaven--so the concept of forgiveness doesn't make sense, unless applied to material outcomes. In at least one school of Islamic thought, though--I don't know whether it's a universal tenet in Islam or not--those who are oppressed actually have a say in the eternal outcome for their oppressor(s). In that case, forgiveness means something, because it can result in the difference between heaven and hell for the oppressor. It isn't the right of the God alone.

These days, when people talk about forgiveness--this is true of when I used to go church, and it's also true in regard to psychotherapy talk--forgiveness is treated like a psychological concept. As a psychological concept, forgiveness has never made sense to me. The person will either improve his or her character, or not. There's no forgiveness to be spoken of if there's no realistic possibility of repayment or vengeance. It can't be purely psychological.

 

[Lark]

Likewise.

In a practical sense, as in forgiving a material debt, it makes sense. I lent money to a friend a while back, knowing that money lent to friends or family is usually money that won't come back. I don't mind whether I'll see that money returned--she's not the type to repeat offend, at least so far, and I expected that it would be hard for her to repay it, due to her constant expenses. I could say I've forgiven her that debt.

In a religious sense: If you believe that you can take metaphysical payment or revenge, such as sending the person to hell, and you freely elect not to, that could be forgiveness. In Christianity, at least in the Christian denominations with which I'm familiar, that isn't possible. They don't have any say in whether the Christian God allows the person to be punished or not; it's a unilateral decision made by that God. Forgiveness, in that case, is the prerogative of the God alone. The "Our Father" / "Lord's Prayer" refers to interpersonal forgiveness, but ultimately, Christians don't have any spiritual recourse against those they forgive--they can't send them to hell or block them from going to heaven--so the concept of forgiveness doesn't make sense, unless applied to material outcomes. In at least one school of Islamic thought, though--I don't know whether it's a universal tenet in Islam or not--those who are oppressed actually have a say in the eternal outcome for their oppressor(s). In that case, forgiveness means something, because it can result in the difference between heaven and hell for the oppressor. It isn't the right of the God alone.

These days, when people talk about forgiveness--this is true of when I used to go church, and it's also true in regard to psychotherapy talk--forgiveness is treated like a psychological concept. As a psychological concept, forgiveness has never made sense to me. The person will either improve his or her character, or not. There's no forgiveness to be spoken of if there's no realistic possibility of repayment or vengeance. It can't be purely psychological.

In the Christian sense, as I understand it, believers are encouraged to recognise that they are sinners too, one of the principle prayers requests of God "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us". For me it is similar to another line in the same prayer "you will be done on earth, as it is in heaven", it is an encouragement or reinforcement for behaviour or character which prefigures the desired destiny/eventuality.

Where the issue arises, I believe, is when the "trespass", "sin" or trangression is much more grievous, it is one matter to forgive (although not necessarily forget) someone who has wronged you in a business dealing, although murder/rape/population displacement? I do not think that there is any way to profess to be a Christian and desire or overtly state you want satisfaction or retaliation in a "tit for tat" manner but its also something very human, I definitely understand it because I have known it myself directly. I would also say its human, all too human, in the sense that humanity can be always contrasted with the divine.

One thing that I do reflect on, however, is that a lot of modern thinking about Christianity, I think is really mistaken, the old testament exists and tells the story of a very different God to a great many modern conceptions. I'm not a fan of many of the Christians who spend more time focused on what I would describe as an "old testament religiosity", as I often think they amplify the wrong things. Although, that said, it needs to be taken into account.

Sometimes, I think Jung's idea of a God in dialogue with humanity progressing inevitably towards the incarnation of himself as a human being can account for what seems like an apparent paradigm shift in God's role in (allowing for all usual points about misconception, language being unable to articulate the ineffable, human incomprehension or lack of apprehension of the obvious etc.).

Though, one thing I know, is that there are numerous, very numerous, assurances that God is just and not in an abstract philosophical manner, that the justice will be plain to all and be seen to be just. That's a prospect to be understood with equal apprehension and appreciation, I think anyway, and largely should make people think about the magnitude of their wrong doing if they think about it at all.

 

[I Tonya]

Living being unable to forgive.

II've found my anger and revengeful spirit can never be quenched. Its just a miserable experience.

If I did something, I really don't expect to be forgiven. I did it, I can't undo it, it exists...it matters. I don't trust ppl who easily forgive, though, I'm scared of being overly punished for not being forgiven. I don't wanna be around toxic ppl.

 

[ceecee]

Likewise.

In a practical sense, as in forgiving a material debt, it makes sense. I lent money to a friend a while back, knowing that money lent to friends or family is usually money that won't come back. I don't mind whether I'll see that money returned--she's not the type to repeat offend, at least so far, and I expected that it would be hard for her to repay it, due to her constant expenses. I could say I've forgiven her that debt.

In a religious sense: If you believe that you can take metaphysical payment or revenge, such as sending the person to hell, and you freely elect not to, that could be forgiveness. In Christianity, at least in the Christian denominations with which I'm familiar, that isn't possible. They don't have any say in whether the Christian God allows the person to be punished or not; it's a unilateral decision made by that God. Forgiveness, in that case, is the prerogative of the God alone. The "Our Father" / "Lord's Prayer" refers to interpersonal forgiveness, but ultimately, Christians don't have any spiritual recourse against those they forgive--they can't send them to hell or block them from going to heaven--so the concept of forgiveness doesn't make sense, unless applied to material outcomes. In at least one school of Islamic thought, though--I don't know whether it's a universal tenet in Islam or not--those who are oppressed actually have a say in the eternal outcome for their oppressor(s). In that case, forgiveness means something, because it can result in the difference between heaven and hell for the oppressor. It isn't the right of the God alone.

These days, when people talk about forgiveness--this is true of when I used to go church, and it's also true in regard to psychotherapy talk--forgiveness is treated like a psychological concept. As a psychological concept, forgiveness has never made sense to me. The person will either improve his or her character, or not. There's no forgiveness to be spoken of if there's no realistic possibility of repayment or vengeance. It can't be purely psychological.

Forgiving a debt or something along those lines - we're square - I grasp fine. As a psychological concept, no it makes no sense to me. What does make sense to me is moving forward or simply writing a person off if there is absolutely no way the wrongdoing will be righted or their character won't improve no matter what. That phrase "you're dead to me" is very applicable here.

 

[Forever]

The former.

Living with a grudge is already putting your life in between bars even if there are no physical bars that the latter may do for you

 

[Lark]

Forgiving a debt or something along those lines - we're square - I grasp fine. As a psychological concept, no it makes no sense to me. What does make sense to me is moving forward or simply writing a person off if there is absolutely no way the wrongdoing will be righted or their character won't improve no matter what. That phrase "you're dead to me" is very applicable here.

The latest episode of Outlander, I dont know if you watch it, has an interesting story featuring native americans, one of their number commits a transgressive act against the tribe and is expelled, they talk about him coming back to camp and causing trouble but they state they could not kill him as he was "already dead to us". I thought, wow, that's proper exile there, they also described being "unable to see him" meaning that the guy was totally ignored. His fate is that he goes mad and gets killed.

I can understand how people are told to consider forgiving people in order to stop themselves being tortured by some kind of hatred or self-reproach or something like that.

I dont give the people who have vendettas against much of a second thought usually. I just know that if I had the opportunity to retaliate ten fold I sure would.

Most of the time, in my experience, the sorts of people who've seriously transgressed towards myself or family or friends are not the sort of people who would interpret forgiveness or forgetting of their actions as anything at all other than an invitation to do exactly the same thing once again to the same people or escalate and do worse. It could be that I've just had the misfortune to know some really bad people.