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Thoughts about Scientology?

Deprecator

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Growing up my favorite author was L. Ron Hubbard, and at the time I thought he was a literary genius; often employing the use of irony and satire to great effect, I thought his books were funny, imaginative and obviously possessed remarkable and unprecedented insights about human nature.

It wasn't until years later that I realized he had helped create a movement, and as an individual who is ordinarily reclusive, the only reason I was just curious enough to check it out was due to my appreciation of his books which I had been reading for years.

My ensuing experiences with Scientology have been overwhelmingly positive, and to such an extent that I was later shocked to learn that it had received such negative coverage by the mainstream media, and today I consider it to be highly reminiscent of the 'fake news' narrative that has been popularized by American politics.

During my day to day life I've encountered many critics of Scientology, and I find the one thing they all have in common is that they form their conclusions without bothering to read a single book by L. Ron Hubbard. So does anyone here mind sharing their thoughts about Scientology? I'd also be curious about any firsthand experiences (positive or negative) that people might have had with it.
 

Merced

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I think it's a huge scam but I have mad respect for whoever is collecting all of that Cult Cash. If it makes you happy, more power to you and your insanely disposable income.
 

Deprecator

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I think it's a huge scam I have mad respect for whoever is collecting all of that Cult Cash
An interesting choice of words, for sure. A scam in which participants get what they're paying for? :huh: A number of religious/ spiritual organizations turn a significant profit; for an example, according bloomberg, the Mormon church takes in 8 billion dollars in tithing each year, and yet accusations of being a 'cult cash' or 'scam' often seem exclusive to Scientology, when in fact the same such allegations can be voiced against virtually any major religious group.

Should we be skeptical of Catholics, Mormons, Muslims and any other spiritual/ religious group just because these organizations make money in the process of offering spiritual guidance that billions of people will claim is immensely beneficial to them?
 

Merced

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An interesting choice of words, for sure. A scam in which participants get what they're paying for? :huh: A number of religious/ spiritual organizations turn a significant profit; for an example, according bloomberg, the Mormon church takes in 8 billion dollars in tithing each year, and yet accusations of being a 'cult cash' or 'scam' often seem exclusive to Scientology, when in fact the same such allegations can be voiced against virtually any major religious group.

Should we be skeptical of Catholics, Mormons, Muslims and any other spiritual/ religious group just because these organizations make money in the process of offering spiritual guidance that billions of people will claim is immensely beneficial to them?

I never said that Scientology is the only scam and that other religions weren't. Also, people refer to the Morman religion as a scam/cult all the time. I find them equally predatory and insanely profitable. Last I remember though, it isn't as inherently expensive to be an active Morman than it is to be an active Scientologist. I think Mormons are just undiscerning whereas Scientologists are desperate.

And yes, we should be skeptical of religions that rake in world changing amounts of cash. I personally would go as far to say that we should be skeptical of any religion that emphasizes collaborative interpretation. You asked about Scientology though.

I assume that Scientologists are paying for a peace of mind, salvation, and a community that will promote self improvement and through those payments they receive that. It's a scam because you could achieve that for free. I'm not mad at them for it either. If I could sell air, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
 

Deprecator

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I never said that Scientology is the only scam and that other religions weren't.
Right. So for clarity's sake, are you implicitly suggesting that all religions that accept money are "scams" even though billions of people can readily testify that they find it to be immensely beneficial?

Last I remember though, it isn't as inherently expensive to be an active Morman than it is to be an active Scientologist.
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Last I checked there is no "fee" to become a Mormon or Scientologist. The Mormon church has never kicked out a member for not paying tithing, and neither have I heard of a Scientologist being kicked out for not paying for services that they offer.

I assume that Scientologists are paying for a peace of mind, salvation, and a community that will promote self improvement and through those payments they receive that. It's a scam because you could achieve that for free.
If you are assuming that Scientologists are paying for peace of mind, personal growth and self-improvement, then what are you assuming that people are paying psychologists/ therapists for? Because by the metric that you've provided it seems that ALL of therapy and all of religion (that accepts monetary payments) could also be considered 'scams.' Which is all well and good; there's nothing inherently wrong with considering religion and therapists to be a 'scam', so to be clear I'm not trying to criticize your views so much as I'm trying to better understand them.
 

Deprecator

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I guess there's always this. Going Clear (film) - Wikipedia
What about it? You're not exactly providing your opinion on the documentary that you're linking so it's difficult for me to comment. I will say that within virtually any organization there are usually disgruntled members who end up leaving, and within virtually any organization there can also be incidents where power is abused. This is true whether it's Scientology, the Catholic church, the Democratic party, the FBI, any branch within the US government, CNN, Fox News or even the American Medical Association; within all these organizations I'd argue that isolated grievances, scandals or controversies that occur shouldn't detract from their overall legitimacy as a whole.

I mean what's next... should we cite the Watergate scandal as evidence that the US government as a whole is a failure? Should we cite a false news report by CNN as evidence to suggest that we should never again watch CNN? Though again, you're not offering a personal opinion, idea or viewpoint here so it's difficult for me to understand what you're trying to get at by simply posting a link.
 

Merced

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Right. So for clarity's sake, are you implicitly suggesting that all religions that accept money are "scams" even though billions of people can readily testify that they find it to be immensely beneficial?

That's an exaggeration but sure. I get that you're trying to argue that everything needs to be expensive because how else would they keep the lights on, but just by looking at the size of the multiple Scientology hubs despite it costing money to reach true salvation is pretty telling. You'd think they'd be handing out fee waivers left and right but nope. I can't even find any online. (But that could just be me.)

And I would like to point out that people falling for a scam doesn't change my opinion of it being a scam. I feel no need to convince anyone out of that scam, but it's still a scam. "You think SO MANY PEOPLE are wrong?" is not a convincing argument because yes. Yes, I do.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Last I checked there is no "fee" to become a Mormon or Scientologist. The Mormon church has never kicked out a member for not paying tithing, and neither have I heard of a Scientologist being kicked out for not paying for services that they offer.

I almost started looking deeply into Scientology a while back by taking the personality quiz but there was no way to take it for free, which is a key starting point to my understanding. Just to make sure that I wasn't being unfair, I just looked into it and I found this Business Insider article about the costs long term. I even double checked their claims like how expensive the books are and according to Scientology.org, it's an expensive religion. You don't get kicked out (never claimed you do), but you don't go far at all within it if you aren't taking the classes. The best I could find pushing against the fact that it's expensive is from a pro Scientology blog that the government views Scientology as a nonprofit therefore it can't be money grubby, but that's laughably weak.

If you are assuming that Scientologists are paying for peace of mind, personal growth and self-improvement, then what are you assuming that people are paying psychologists/ therapists for? Because by the metric that you've provided it seems that ALL of therapy and all of religion (that accepts monetary payments) could also be considered 'scams.' Which is all well and good; there's nothing inherently wrong with considering religion and therapists to be a 'scam', so to be clear I'm not trying to criticize your views so much as I'm trying to better understand them.

You excluded the community part but I guess that wouldn't make sense with the claim you're making. Therapists aren't trying to trick you into a cycle. Any decent therapist will tell you that at the end of the day, their job is for you not to feel the need to come back. Your relationship with therapy should be sort of be a one and done type of deal in the long run. Psychologists are doctors. I'm going to assume that you aren't putting medicine and religion on the same playing field because the argument of "How is Scientology a scam but medicine isn't?" will absolutely make me drop this conversation. You seem like a cool dude, don't make that argument.

For a more blunt look into my perspective: I don't think religion should have any type of group interpretation aspects to it. As in, I don't think religion should support a group of people coming together about it. I think religion should be extremely personal and private. Therefore, I am against the idea of any religion needing a church because I'm against the idea of people going to a church in the first place. Inherently, most religions are a scam because most religions emphasize community in proper participation. I am agnostic, but I was raised in a household that was Mormon but transitioned into what I can only call 'vanilla Christianity'. (Christianity has so many branches that I have no idea what this would be.) I was never that into religion and that was respected in my household. I myself briefly identified as Hindu, but no longer feel comfortable claiming to be that either. I, despite how I might've framed myself, am not anti-religion in the sense that I think religion is bad and everyone should stop, because religion is extremely personal and not a place for others to comment on in that sense. I'm critical of religion but I do understand that to each their own. For every person like me who thinks religion should be purely private, there's someone who thinks religion is purely public, and that's not a debate either side would be able to win.

Now in terms of do I think all religions are cults, no. Scientology is a cult, Mormonism is a cult, pure Catholicism is a cult. What makes a cult a cult is the aspect of indoctrination or mind control to put it bluntly. I do think that every religion has followers that are more than willing to implement the tactics of indoctrination, but I don't think that many of the religions have aspects of indoctrination that are actually written within the text they follow.

After writing all of that out, I do want to say that despite my negative view of Scientology, I do not think that people who follow Scientology are inherently bad because of their religion. I respect you and I acknowledge that the dismissive comment I made at the start of this conversation implied negative things about you. I apologize for that (though I do retain the sentiment that being a Scientologist requires a very disposable income). I have no intent on convincing you out of your religion or shaming you for it.
 

ducks

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What about it? You're not exactly providing your opinion on the documentary that you're linking so it's difficult for me to comment. I will say that within virtually any organization there are usually disgruntled members who end up leaving, and within virtually any organization there can also be incidents where power is abused. This is true whether it's Scientology, the Catholic church, the Democratic party, the FBI, any branch within the US government, CNN, Fox News or even the American Medical Association; within all these organizations I'd argue that isolated grievances, scandals or controversies that occur shouldn't detract from their overall legitimacy as a whole.

I mean what's next... should we cite the Watergate scandal as evidence that the US government as a whole is a failure? Should we cite a false news report by CNN as evidence to suggest that we should never again watch CNN? Though again, you're not offering a personal opinion, idea or viewpoint here so it's difficult for me to understand what you're trying to get at by simply posting a link.

I've heard a lot of things that equate Scientology with cult status. I'm not saying I agree, but when I read/hear stuff about Tom Cruise and John Travolta as scientologists and how the church puts celebrities in high status in the organization, it just turns me off. I prefer humbleness and humility when it comes to guidance and spiritual matters. I prefer lessons, rather than answers or direct philosophies. I get a completely different feeling about scientology, like it's much more about new agey and motivational speaker type stuff. It also feels very pushy with the idea of positive thinking and how that can effect our lives. I've even heard the idea (from a video on scientology) that on some quantum level our positive thinking can influence positive quantum outcomes to occur, as if physics is primarily subjective and the entire world is an extension of one's thoughts. And that might fit well for some people, but not really me. It just turns me off. It feels too gimmicky, even if there is certain truth to it.
 

Beorn

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It's a scam.
A cult.
A destroyer of lives.

You would be better off leaving it and nobody that reads this thread should believe anything you say about it being a positive experience because you're being lied to.
 

Suaimhneas

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My ensuing experiences with Scientology have been overwhelmingly positive, and to such an extent that I was later shocked to learn that it had received such negative coverage by the mainstream media, and today I consider it to be highly reminiscent of the 'fake news' narrative that has been popularized by American politics.

During my day to day life I've encountered many critics of Scientology, and I find the one thing they all have in common is that they form their conclusions without bothering to read a single book by L. Ron Hubbard. So does anyone here mind sharing their thoughts about Scientology? I'd also be curious about any firsthand experiences (positive or negative) that people might have had with it.

I've never had any firsthand experience with Scientology, aside from driving past the center down the road and hearing the negative media you speak of. I tend to be somewhat suspicious of organized religion, but I'm open to learning about it and trying to understand the appeal. So, as someone who has been exposed, what has been your positive experience?
 

tinker683

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Growing up my favorite author was L. Ron Hubbard, and at the time I thought he was a literary genius; often employing the use of irony and satire to great effect, I thought his books were funny, imaginative and obviously possessed remarkable and unprecedented insights about human nature.

It wasn't until years later that I realized he had helped create a movement, and as an individual who is ordinarily reclusive, the only reason I was just curious enough to check it out was due to my appreciation of his books which I had been reading for years.

My ensuing experiences with Scientology have been overwhelmingly positive, and to such an extent that I was later shocked to learn that it had received such negative coverage by the mainstream media, and today I consider it to be highly reminiscent of the 'fake news' narrative that has been popularized by American politics.

During my day to day life I've encountered many critics of Scientology, and I find the one thing they all have in common is that they form their conclusions without bothering to read a single book by L. Ron Hubbard. So does anyone here mind sharing their thoughts about Scientology? I'd also be curious about any firsthand experiences (positive or negative) that people might have had with it.

Ahoy there!

I'm going to proceed forward with this conversation assuming you are indeed a genuine believer and not a troll so I will respond honestly.

Truthfully, I find the religion fascinating. Not because I believe any of the tenets (I don't) but because of how it's structured, their beliefs, and their practices, and the way it's grown. Admittingly my sources of information about the CoS has been from it's critics but being someone who is on the inside, maybe you can clear some things up.

Have you seen the aforementioned documentary, Going Clear? If so, how much of it does it get right and how much of it does it get wrong? What are some common perceptions of Scientology you think are wrong?

Looking forward to your response :cheers:
 

Yuurei

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It's just another system to remove any responsibility for our failures and misery; a distraction from the very solvable problems of the here and now. In this way it's no different than every other religion.
 

Jaq

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It's just another system to remove any responsibility for our failures and misery; a distraction from the very solvable problems of the here and now. In this way it's no different than every other religion.

I agree with this, but I'm not knowledgeable of every religion. I can't say this echoes my thoughts perfectly.
 
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It’s just like any other system of control made successful through exploiting people’s fears and ignorance. The exception is the fact it’s origins are well documented. No need to go digging back into antiquity in an attempt to find the source of this nonsense. It’s a case study in how to build a modern organized religion. I think if you wish to believe in a higher power the less middle men between you and him/her/it the better.

Edit: That doesn’t mean listen to the voice in your head claiming to be god and telling you to build a UFO in your back yard and wear your tinfoil hat to receive further instructions. You may want a third party intervention in that scenario. 🛸
 

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Scientology is a tough nut to crack. There's an argument that a movement should not be judged by it's defectors. Why should the sour grapes of disgruntled Scientologists be the final word on the movement?

And yet, the former-Scientologists tell stories that all seem fairly similar to each other, detailing stories of various types of abuses, corruption and all that.

The contented Scientologists are understandably skeptical about those claims. But then, they would be, wouldn't they? If they haven't seen the full inner workings of the Scientology institution, they're hardly in any position to criticize the people farther up the Scientologist ladder.

For me, there are far too many red flags and warning signs about Scientology to ever consider it for myself. If someone gets something positive from Scientology, whatever, good for them. But the organization looks pretty sketchy and I don't want anything to do with it.
 

Abcdenfp

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An interesting choice of words, for sure. A scam in which participants get what they're paying for? :huh: A number of religious/ spiritual organizations turn a significant profit; for an example, according bloomberg, the Mormon church takes in 8 billion dollars in tithing each year, and yet accusations of being a 'cult cash' or 'scam' often seem exclusive to Scientology, when in fact the same such allegations can be voiced against virtually any major religious group. Should we be skeptical of Catholics, Mormons, Muslims and any other spiritual/ religious group just because these organizations make money in the process of offering spiritual guidance that billions of people will claim is immensely beneficial to them?
can you list some of the enriching life benefits and up lifting qualities that you have seen given your exposure to scientology.
most religions stem from a man sitting under a tree and having enlightening thoughts. but what are these thoughts of hubbards ? what is the summary of his work
where the fuck are the aliens
 

Poki

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Growing up my favorite author was L. Ron Hubbard, and at the time I thought he was a literary genius; often employing the use of irony and satire to great effect, I thought his books were funny, imaginative and obviously possessed remarkable and unprecedented insights about human nature. It wasn't until years later that I realized he had helped create a movement, and as an individual who is ordinarily reclusive, the only reason I was just curious enough to check it out was due to my appreciation of his books which I had been reading for years. My ensuing experiences with Scientology have been overwhelmingly positive, and to such an extent that I was later shocked to learn that it had received such negative coverage by the mainstream media, and today I consider it to be highly reminiscent of the 'fake news' narrative that has been popularized by American politics. During my day to day life I've encountered many critics of Scientology, and I find the one thing they all have in common is that they form their conclusions without bothering to read a single book by L. Ron Hubbard. So does anyone here mind sharing their thoughts about Scientology? I'd also be curious about any firsthand experiences (positive or negative) that people might have had with it.
I cant stand religion...that stands independent of my opinion of God or the Bible.

I have one question...if scientology is so accurate about human nature why does it have such a hard time overcoming it?
 

Deprecator

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nobody that reads this thread should believe anything you say
Why... do you think I've said something that was dishonest or misleading? It's interesting how it seems that you're so intimidated by my post that your initial reaction is to literally attack my personal character/ credibility.

because you're being lied to.
This is a very dire allegation that you're making. Are you able to articulate who you think is specifically lying to me and about what or do you prefer to rely solely on unfounded speculation as opposed to anything remotely concrete?

It's a scam.
A cult.
A destroyer of lives.
Yet again with the scam digs. Apparently multiple people here think that getting exactly what you pay for is a scam. Do you have first hand experience with Scientology or are you relying on secondhand information to form your conclusion? Because from my perspective, it seems that you've read a fake news article, blindly accepted it as fact with such zeal and vigor that you're literally going as far as to claim that people shouldn't believing anything I say just because my experiences aren't consistent with your interpretation of secondhand sources that have likely been discredited.
 

Deprecator

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I have one question... if scientology is so accurate about human nature why does it have such a hard time overcoming it?
I don't understand your question, and because I'm interested in your view on the topic I'll seek clarity. By what metric are you using to determine that Scientology struggles to 'overcome' human nature? Last I checked Scientology is the largest and fastest growing modern day religion in the world, is the largest independent disaster relief organization in the world, was founded by the most published author of all time, and is also the most sought after alternative to psychiatry in terms of mental health treatment options. If you or anyone else believes these statements to be "moot" or "irrelevant" as far as understanding human nature is concerned, then pray tell: what information would you instead cite to support the inverse of your implicit claim, that Scientology 'struggles' to overcome human nature?
 
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