• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

are optimists naive?

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best? :huh:

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
I don't think so I'm sometimes optimist like a lot of people are moving out and people are like it's gonna be college kids and trap houses and I'm like you don't know that. So maybe I'm not necessarily an optimist but i do have hope.
 

Frosty

Poking the poodle
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
12,667
Instinctual Variant
sp
Maybe. My sort of mindset is to hope for the best but to prepare for the worst. That was disappointment doesnt hit too hard but you also still get to experience hope.

I think going through life always expecting the worst would eventually become sort of soul crushing... so I DO think think optimism is a good thing... if left to be checked by reality
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Some of us need to envision a happy future to be able to work towards better things. In my mind for us, it's less about naivete and more about focusing energy. One may fall short of the goal, but that still leaves you a few steps ahead. (<--- more optimism)
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best? :huh:

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?

I think this is an interesting topic for a thread.

That portrayal, optimist as naive or optimism as naivety, is one that a recognise, absolutely.

However, consider, on the one hand, that this is the case, but also that, on the other, everyone is expected to be an optimist, or that optimism is commended and recommended to everyone.

If there is any pervasive ideology at all at present it is positive thinking, from the simpler sorts of CBT, NLP or mindfulness ideas on the one end of the scale to the cosmic ordering, the secret, the law of attraction, Norman Vincent ideas on the other. A lot of it, both ends of the spectrum, I think involve a kind of "magical thinking" some more and some less and I'm not sure why a lot of the modern day zeitgeist types spend so, so much time involved the in the God Wars debates when all this sort of superstition either persists or is making a comeback.

Questions about whether or not God exists seem positively safe and sound in contrast to a lot of it.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best? :huh:

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?
If their optimism is unbridled, then yes - I would consider them naive. This is different from being confident that one can weather whatever happens and come out all right in the end.
 

xXxXx_wEltschmErz_xXxXx

the manga was better
Joined
Jan 11, 2018
Messages
397
In some situations it might be for the best to accept that things probably won't work out. But you miss out on a lot of positive outcomes if you walk around with a pessimistic view on the future. Even if optimism can be naive it surely helps more than it hurts, I think. Looking generally I wouldn't call optimists naive. It depends on how optimistic you are or if you have unrealistic expectations, then that can hurt when things don't turn out as imagined.
 

Sacrophagus

Mastermind Fieldmarshal
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
1,702
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
854
Maybe, but I'd rather have an optimist around who thinks every positive outcome is possible than a pessimistic fuck always ranting about an imaginary doomsday like state of the world, thinking everyone has some hidden agenda against them, with a shit ton of shitty conspiracy theories, spreading negativity like wildfire, and sucking the life out of everything and everyone.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
Some of us need to envision a happy future to be able to work towards better things. In my mind for us, it's less about naivete and more about focusing energy. One may fall short of the goal, but that still leaves you a few steps ahead. (<--- more optimism)

There's a school of thought that the most pivotal thing in the history of humankind was the "invention" of "the future", beginning with Judaism's messianism, continuing with Christianity's awaited return of Christ, continuing in a number of secular formats, usually a hoped for revolution of one sort of another or a generic idea of linear "progress" and "progressive" thinking.

Given that it seems to be such a thing with such a scope I always wonder at the counter tendency and its popularity, all the Eckhart Tolle power of now and no future, no past kind of thing.

Though I do see that being inflicted upon or popular in only some sorts of cultures, communities and nationalities though.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There's a school of thought that the most pivotal thing in the history of humankind was the "invention" of "the future", beginning with Judaism's messianism, continuing with Christianity's awaited return of Christ, continuing in a number of secular formats, usually a hoped for revolution of one sort of another or a generic idea of linear "progress" and "progressive" thinking.

Given that it seems to be such a thing with such a scope I always wonder at the counter tendency and its popularity, all the Eckhart Tolle power of now and no future, no past kind of thing.

Though I do see that being inflicted upon or popular in only some sorts of cultures, communities and nationalities though.

Ultimately all of our realized dreams will conflict with each other. That's a very different and difficult subject.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
Ultimately all of our realized dreams will conflict with each other. That's a very different and difficult subject.

Interesting, I dont follow but we could be talking about different things.

These kinds of things I dont believe any human mind has been able to conceive of really, though the discovery of a past and future aswell as a present, the discovery of historical time, those are all huge. I know that Popper mangled historicism in his attacks on it and pretty much no one appears to really champion the idea anymore but there was a time it was the only real rival to religion and it was massive in its day.
 

Typh0n

clever fool
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
3,497
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Realism is generally seen as the synonym of pessimism and the opposite of optimism. Yet you can't build a future on realism. Realism concerns the past and present, what is.

You can't win your battles on realism or pessimism. Only optimism towards the final goal, however it must be said you have to be willing to take some losses, lose some battles if you wanna win a war. Don't underestimate the enemy. Make sacrifices where it's necessary etc. But if you don't believe you can win, why even try? So I would say be realistic about what you have right now, and be realistic about how you can turn what you have into what you don't have, don't fall into illusions, but ultimately if you don't believe you can win, why try?

Note I am talking very generally, using war and military strategy as an analogy.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best? :huh:

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?

My dad always said, "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst." As an INTJ Enneagram 6, that always stuck with me.

I think it's important to be hopeful and optimistic. Pessimists don't make things happen. Then again, if you blindly hope for the best and don't have any consideration of what might go wrong or contingencies, that can be a problem.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
My dad always said, "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst." As an INTJ Enneagram 6, that always stuck with me.

I think it's important to be hopeful and optimistic. Pessimists don't make things happen. Then again, if you blindly hope for the best and don't have any consideration of what might go wrong or contingencies, that can be a problem.

What I actually worry about, and has become a serious reality in the UK, is something on a par with North Korean propaganda, anyone who is prepared to report things exactly as they are, even without the catastrophising is dismissed as negative, unwelcome, worse than a pessimist but someone likely to cause depression in themselves or others.

In my home town, a number of times, the council has commissioned building sized facades which when the town is ever on camera (it is in close proximity to an annual motorbike road race and has public statues/memorial gardens to riders who made the sport famous and died in the process) it does not look like the majority of the buildings are actually derelict (even the former banks).

Now in theory this is not simply about "taking the bad look of things" when the town is featured in TV broadcasts but backed by academic research from the US and criminologists in, I think it was Chicago, I cant remember the proper title but they used to refer to it as the "broken windows" research when I was a university. Whatever the reasons it really, really made me think of that movie The Interview which featured phony towns in North Korea.

What I have found is this sort of thinking infects EVERYTHING so you have politicians and public works who care about nothing other than things looking good on paper or being positively reported whatever the reality happens to actually be, when reports which actually reflect reality happen instead of responding to the report most of the time they deal with whoever made the report, hence the condemnation of them as "negative".

I can see how this is reflected in what is trending politically, globally too but I think its particularly bad in this part of the world, which already had a whole host of ways of shutting down any public disclosure of how pathetically bad things were already. When I travelled with my brother and friends to the US the first time they said to me to be prepared for "culture shock". I was expecting it was going to be something about the inequality in the big cities, although rough sleeping has become as popular a pass time here since the end of the troubles. What they really meant was that things were actually so good in the US that you'd question why things were so bad back home.

For some time now I've thought the biggest problem is that "back home" people are still seriously kidding themselves that "things are just fine" or "things are great" and "we are the envy of the world" kind of thing, its the sort of delusion that I think has been fuelling the Brexit debate and idea that the UK, despite not even being as big as Texas, could become a rival to the EU, which is 27 member states.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What I actually worry about, and has become a serious reality in the UK, is something on a par with North Korean propaganda, anyone who is prepared to report things exactly as they are, even without the catastrophising is dismissed as negative, unwelcome, worse than a pessimist but someone likely to cause depression in themselves or others.

In my home town, a number of times, the council has commissioned building sized facades which when the town is ever on camera (it is in close proximity to an annual motorbike road race and has public statues/memorial gardens to riders who made the sport famous and died in the process) it does not look like the majority of the buildings are actually derelict (even the former banks).

Now in theory this is not simply about "taking the bad look of things" when the town is featured in TV broadcasts but backed by academic research from the US and criminologists in, I think it was Chicago, I cant remember the proper title but they used to refer to it as the "broken windows" research when I was a university. Whatever the reasons it really, really made me think of that movie The Interview which featured phony towns in North Korea.

What I have found is this sort of thinking infects EVERYTHING so you have politicians and public works who care about nothing other than things looking good on paper or being positively reported whatever the reality happens to actually be, when reports which actually reflect reality happen instead of responding to the report most of the time they deal with whoever made the report, hence the condemnation of them as "negative".

I can see how this is reflected in what is trending politically, globally too but I think its particularly bad in this part of the world, which already had a whole host of ways of shutting down any public disclosure of how pathetically bad things were already. When I travelled with my brother and friends to the US the first time they said to me to be prepared for "culture shock". I was expecting it was going to be something about the inequality in the big cities, although rough sleeping has become as popular a pass time here since the end of the troubles. What they really meant was that things were actually so good in the US that you'd question why things were so bad back home.

For some time now I've thought the biggest problem is that "back home" people are still seriously kidding themselves that "things are just fine" or "things are great" and "we are the envy of the world" kind of thing, its the sort of delusion that I think has been fuelling the Brexit debate and idea that the UK, despite not even being as big as Texas, could become a rival to the EU, which is 27 member states.


It's interesting that it can work in politics and/or culture but it doesn't work very well in business.

Enron Scandal: The Fall of a Wall Street Darling | Investopedia
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569

It's interesting that it can work in politics and/or culture but it doesn't work very well in business.

Enron Scandal: The Fall of a Wall Street Darling | Investopedia

I think it "works", or rather happens, in business too.

At least most of the news stories in the UK would say so, the collapse of Correllion Corporation and gross mismanagement of a rail network were both in the news today, both of which sparked discussion of whether government should manage or merely regulate business, these had to be big and radical developments for the conservatives to allow that air time on the BBC.

I'm not sure that ownership per se will make any sort of difference, in fact, forget "not sure", I'm absolutely sure that ownership per se will make no difference, in and of itself, to the business performance.

In fact "too big to fail", was that not the bankers following the example of the Donald anyway?
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
If their optimism is unbridled, then yes - I would consider them naive. This is different from being confident that one can weather whatever happens and come out all right in the end.

Yes, that is different. I understand some people need to envision a positive future to allow them to work towards better things. That actually makes sense when you have to swim through a world of shit to get to the other shore. But it often meanders into denial about the reality of a situation. That's a problem.
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
I have a love/hate relationship with optimism. My SO is far more optimistic than I am, and sometimes I get annoyed. It tends to feel fakey after awhile for me, like a lie we tell ourselves just to survive.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
My dad always said, "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst." As an INTJ Enneagram 6, that always stuck with me.

I think it's important to be hopeful and optimistic. Pessimists don't make things happen. Then again, if you blindly hope for the best and don't have any consideration of what might go wrong or contingencies, that can be a problem.
That is why it is best to be a realist, with a sound grasp of cause/effect and cost/benefit.

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite characters: “Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." The alternative? "remove the carrot and walk forward with our eyes open!”
 
Top