are optimists naive?

[Hiraeth]

I think you need some optimism in order to have hope -- because without hope, what do you really have?

There's a reason why successful people become successful in the first place. Somewhere in the corner of their mind lingers at least a smidgen of hope that they can achieve, and that encourages the action to get there.

I think a balance of the two, optimism vs. reality, is necessary. That way if things turn for the unexpected, you'd be able to handle it with a better perspective because not being able to either would also be damaging.

However, looking at negative occurences and finding a positive lesson from them is a good start in the right direction.

I also happen to believe in the law of attraction and that all is energy. Positive energy reflects the positive toward you. Becoming happier in life naturally cultivates a more optimistic thought process.

Simply by reprogramming your mind, perhaps through the use of maintaining practices such as meditation, yoga, tai chi, positive affirmations, etc. can also be a very powerful aid in getting there.

Of course, then you'd need the will to fulfill the prophecy. How would you get there? A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Some things don't happen overnight; it takes work and dedication. Sluggish? Work on how to improve your health so that you won't feel tired constantly and therefore could hinder you from reaching your goal. Find the root cause for why something isn't being accomplished, and then go from there. There is always a way to work around something, or at least find a viable compromise.

Then again, this can all be a product from my own naive, idealistic self...but I truly believe it.

 

[Qlip]

I think it's naive to think you aren't ultimately naive in the universe, even if you are a skeptic or a realist.

 

[1487610420]

I was optimistic about the decaf espresso, but naive that the cigarette stench from the smokers out in front hadn't leaked inside and impregnate my fresh clean hair and clothes.

 

[Coriolis]

Yeah I know what you mean but those contingency plans are exhausting. I think this is pretty typical for INxJ types (or 6s or 1s). We think things through in depth (because yeah, if we don't, nobody will).
I pretty much had a burnout last year. It forced me to say "fuck it" every now and then.

Making these plans is second nature to me, but you are right that it is a constant if low-level drain on energy and attention, sort of like the minimal current that keeps something in standby when it is not needed at the moment. Whenever I meet someone who can be trusted to do what they say, more or less when they say they will, I can feel that small part of the burden get lifted.

How would you relate that to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

Do you mean to suggest "Its all in the mind"? This seems very close to The Secret, Law of Attraction, Cosmic Ordering territory, which I would have thought would be pretty intolerable superstition especially for anyone in tune with the pop atheism of the forum, not saying you are but I'm surprised at how inconsistent a lot of the thinking on the forum really is from one topic to another.

It isn't all in the mind, but it is partly in the mind. Any coach knows that. If it relates at all to Dunning-Kruger, it is as yet one more thing that people who lack can overestimate. They can tackle some great hurdle believing that they have the confidence and motivation to see it through, only to give up easily and blame external circumstances for why they did.

 

[Virtual ghost]

is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best?

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?

That is because they very often can't exactly pinpoint the basis for their optimism.

Not to mention that many of them consider optimism to be the goal on it's own. What suggests very strong emotional reasoning in the background.

 

[Lark]

I think it's naive to think you aren't ultimately naive in the universe, even if you are a skeptic or a realist.

An interesting premise definitely.

It is probably a good idea to recognise that you always operate with incomplete information.

 

[Lark]

Making these plans is second nature to me, but you are right that it is a constant if low-level drain on energy and attention, sort of like the minimal current that keeps something in standby when it is not needed at the moment. Whenever I meet someone who can be trusted to do what they say, more or less when they say they will, I can feel that small part of the burden get lifted.


It isn't all in the mind, but it is partly in the mind. Any coach knows that. If it relates at all to Dunning-Kruger, it is as yet one more thing that people who lack can overestimate. They can tackle some great hurdle believing that they have the confidence and motivation to see it through, only to give up easily and blame external circumstances for why they did.

I dont really follow what you're saying here. My understanding of Dunning-Kruger may be different. My understanding is that Dunning-Kruger discovered that the over confident, or arrogant, succeed despite gaps in their knowledge because they are confident/arrogant, organisations can suffer. I've heard it summarised vulgarly as "shite floats" and "gold sinks". So positive thinking and optimism can be a recipe for personal success but wider decline, atrophy and entropy.

 

[Coriolis]

I dont really follow what you're saying here. My understanding of Dunning-Kruger may be different. My understanding is that Dunning-Kruger discovered that the over confident, or arrogant, succeed despite gaps in their knowledge because they are confident/arrogant, organisations can suffer. I've heard it summarised vulgarly as "shite floats" and "gold sinks". So positive thinking and optimism can be a recipe for personal success but wider decline, atrophy and entropy.

My point was that people can overestimate the extent to which their own positive thinking and drive can help them follow through on an accomplishment, just as they can overestimate other kinds of ability or skill. Based on the examples used to illustrate Dunning-Kruger in the references I checked, organizations suffer only when they override their objective understanding of someone's ability and refuse to take appropriate action, e.g. fire someone, or adjust how they are supervised and what work they are given to be more consistent with their actual ability.

 

[Tilt]

There's a difference between idealism and optimism. Steering too much towards idealism means unrealistic expectations/goals and lack of execution and optimism is hoping for a good outcome/having a positive attitude. Many people who are optimistic are also idealistic. Those are the ones people tend to associate with naiveté.

 

[boomslang]

By virtue of their mood and expectations they will affect circumstances?

Is that not merely magical thinking?

Not at all. If you ask for something from someone that you think you'll get with no problems, there will be less hesitance and doubt in your voice, meaning they're more likely to give you whatever that thing is. If there's hesitance and doubt in your voice, it can invite the listener to start thinking about why they'd rather not give you that thing, and even just the tone may lead them to denying you without a reason.

 

[Lark]

Not at all. If you ask for something from someone that you think you'll get with no problems, there will be less hesitance and doubt in your voice, meaning they're more likely to give you whatever that thing is. If there's hesitance and doubt in your voice, it can invite the listener to start thinking about why they'd rather not give you that thing, and even just the tone may lead them to denying you without a reason.

I remain skeptical of this idea that mood and expectations can exercise such control over external events, it really does sound too much like the different positive thinking ideologies I mentioned, which can all be traced back to some guy suggesting that if people can just imagine hard enough what they want it will impress itself on some sort of psychic "stuff" and be delivered pronto.

Though if you're saying that the greater part of communication is tone, inflection, non-verbals, sure, language is a recent innovation.

 

[boomslang]

I remain skeptical of this idea that mood and expectations can exercise such control over external events, it really does sound too much like the different positive thinking ideologies I mentioned, which can all be traced back to some guy suggesting that if people can just imagine hard enough what they want it will impress itself on some sort of psychic "stuff" and be delivered pronto.

Though if you're saying that the greater part of communication is tone, inflection, non-verbals, sure, language is a recent innovation.

If you're naive enough to think it's 'magical thinking', people have probably been playing you like a fiddle for years.

 

[Yuurei]

No more than cynacist.
To assume that things "Just happen." one way or the other, all the time, without you taking the initiate to guide the outcome, is naive.

 

[that's not my name]

Inevitably some are

 

[ceecee]

Making these plans is second nature to me, but you are right that it is a constant if low-level drain on energy and attention, sort of like the minimal current that keeps something in standby when it is not needed at the moment. Whenever I meet someone who can be trusted to do what they say, more or less when they say they will, I can feel that small part of the burden get lifted.

It so nice to find that person. Infrequent but so nice.

 

[Merced]

No, I don't think optimists are inherently naive. Some can be, but optimism is not naivete.

I think pessimism is unproductive (and extremely unattractive). There's some value in cynicism, but it's ultimately not as good a way to go about things as optimism.

 

[Bush]

"It'll be okay." "Things will work out somehow." Somehow. It's all general enough to encompass a huge variety of outcomes. To me, prudent optimism means being able to make lemonade out of lemons; to see the silver lining. I'd rather live that way than via the alternative.

But optimism can be naive if it's too specific. Think of the dude on the slot machine who's pissing away his earnings because he thinks he's going to get a payout at some point. Think about "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." Think about how naive it would be to think that the eighth time you touch a stove, your hand won't get burned.

 

[misfortuneteller]

How cynical would you have to be to assume this, seriously. There is nothing wrong with hoping for the best even if you do get lost in it sometimes. I think usually the reactive types (4,6,8) are the ones that find optimism naive and i'm clearly not wrong.

 

[Poki]

is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best? optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?

No, blind faith is naive. Blind trust is naive. Doesnt mean you will ALWAYS be taken advantage of or things will always turn out bad. Also, dont confuse naive with lack of understanding how a person comes to a conclusion or not determining the goal of the person. For example, i have walked into situations i knew was not gonna turn out good because i wanted to give it a shot. I have been deemed naive as i should have known...except i did...but the person couldnt comprehend why i would walk into that situation and therefore couldnt comprehend beyond their own judgement of naive.

 

[Nomendei]

is it naive to believe that things will turn out for the best?

optimistic characters are usually portrayed as naive and sometimes almost magical, or as children... why?

It simply depends on what you are optimistic.