are optimists naive?

[Lord Lavender]

Yes. Neither optimism nor pessimism is realistic. The middle ground, of course, is realism. When fueled by strong values and ideals ("idealism"), it can accomplish great things.

I am curious what can be done to gauge what realism is. To me it's attempting to remove all projections,biases e.t.c and seeing things for what they are. Like say we had a planet to possibly mine from the optimist will say oooooh look at all the profit and fun things, the pessmist will bemoan the travel and operation expenses but the realist will take the whole equation into focus.

 

[meowington]

An optimist tries. A pessimist does not.

Says who ?
I'm a pessimist & perfectionist and I put in way more effort in everything I do than average. (Too much actually)

An optimist may suffer failure but at least they don't fear it.

This I agree with.

My dad always said, "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst." As an INTJ Enneagram 6, that always stuck with me.

I think it's important to be hopeful and optimistic. Pessimists don't make things happen. Then again, if you blindly hope for the best and don't have any consideration of what might go wrong or contingencies, that can be a problem.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. As a Ni-dominant and E6 myself this really is exactly how I feel about optimism/pessimism.

My dad always says "Panta Rhei" (everything flows) when I'm upset about something or when I get stuck in my relentless pessimism.

What I actually worry about, and has become a serious reality in the UK, is something on a par with North Korean propaganda, anyone who is prepared to report things exactly as they are, even without the catastrophising is dismissed as negative, unwelcome, worse than a pessimist but someone likely to cause depression in themselves or others.

Apart from North Korean propaganda, which imho is a far stretch, this has crossed my mind a lot the last few years.
Pure realism is often regarded as negative or pessismistic. Optimism is fine when it's rooted in something substantial. But all too often I notice optimists are usually very average people with very little understanding of whatever is at hand. Ignorance is bliss kind of thing.

 

[boomslang]

A realist would see that an optimist can increase the amount of situations that would go well for them by virtue of their mood and expectations affecting circumstances where a lack of those moods and expectations would lead to a neutral or negative result.

 

[Lark]

Apart from North Korean propaganda, which imho is a far stretch, this has crossed my mind a lot the last few years.
Pure realism is often regarded as negative or pessismistic. Optimism is fine when it's rooted in something substantial. But all too often I notice optimists are usually very average people with very little understanding of whatever is at hand. Ignorance is bliss kind of thing.

I only mention that because its practically the same, in the movie reference I mentioned they had buildings which were constructed to impress upon tourists it was an average town but the fruit in the grocery window was made of plaster, the example in my own home town that I was talking about was life size billboard cover of derelict buildings including pictures of working shops.

Realism is looked upon as pessimism, although sometimes I've heard people who were more or less pessimistic or optimistic describe themselves as realists, so there's that.

I wonder about the relationship between optimism and pessimism and the Dunning-Kreuger (or whatever way its spelt) effect.

 

[Lark]

A realist would see that an optimist can increase the amount of situations that would go well for them by virtue of their mood and expectations affecting circumstances where a lack of those moods and expectations would lead to a neutral or negative result.

By virtue of their mood and expectations they will affect circumstances?

Is that not merely magical thinking?

 

[meowington]

I wonder about the relationship between optimism and pessimism and the Dunning-Kreuger (or whatever way its spelt) effect.

How interesting ! Thanks. Didn't know about that. It explains everything

Dunning-kruger is the correct spelling apparently.

Ultimately, the problem with this world is inflated ego's.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." ~ Bertrand Russell

 

[Lark]

How interesting ! Thanks. Didn't know about that. It explains everything

Dunning-kruger is the correct spelling apparently.

Ultimately, the problem with this world is inflated ego's.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." ~ Bertrand Russell

Hard to disagree with that, Dunning-Kruger was just the beginning, their actual study has been supplimented by a lot of research done my the US Navy, which is incredibly important when you consider that it is probably one of or the most powerful force in the world, there's a bunch of military humour that's a direct reference to it, like the character of "Radar" in M*A*S*H or the movie Up Periscope or stuff like that.

I just think its very interesting how it would interact with the "ideology" of positive thinking, either in its business or popular formats, I'm reading about half a dozen books which are critical of this at the moment and I would consider all of them to be dated, despite being relatively recently published, its been a long time since Smile or Die or Bright Sided relatively speaking.

Although is someone was to say the secret of their success was that they are a shiney, happy person, smile at everyone, keep positive, have a strong will or any of those vagaries given what I know of the Dunning-Kruger I definitely would not argue with it because that is exactly all it seems necessary for success, I mean, there's other variables, you need to be fortunate and find yourself in auspicious circumstances but what matters is that they are not citing knowledge, skills and practice.

Circling around back to Miss Fortune's title for the thread, I think that in the unsuccessful that optimism is described as naive but in the successful it is probably described as positivity. Though others would readily say that's a negative mindset I've got.

 

[Coriolis]

I am curious what can be done to gauge what realism is. To me it's attempting to remove all projections,biases e.t.c and seeing things for what they are. Like say we had a planet to possibly mine from the optimist will say oooooh look at all the profit and fun things, the pessmist will bemoan the travel and operation expenses but the realist will take the whole equation into focus.

Your definition here seems reasonable. In your example, the optimist and the pessimist each have one side of the cost/benefit analysis. The realist wants both sides and will consider them together. The idealist will see the bigger picture - how mining the planet can help make the world a better place, or at least contribute to reaching some greater goal or promoting some value or ideal. The analysis of a realist will show if this will be an effective approach to those goals, or if costs will outweigh benefits and one should explore other options instead.

By virtue of their mood and expectations they will affect circumstances?

Is that not merely magical thinking?

No, it is human psychology. Mood and expectations are tied to motivations and one's willingness to persevere in making something happen. If one knows one has the drive and tenacity to keep at a difficult task, this can be factored in as a resource, much like money, time, information, etc. This, however, depends on an established track record of doing the same, otherwise it is just wishful thinking.

 

[prplchknz]

How interesting ! Thanks. Didn't know about that. It explains everything

Dunning-kruger is the correct spelling apparently.

Ultimately, the problem with this world is inflated ego's.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." ~ Bertrand Russell

I'm pretty optimistic but don't believe i'm the best or a genius, rather my optimism is more like we'll be ok in the future even if we aren't now, and things will probably get worse before they get better. also that most people are good but i know that all aren't.I realize its not all puppies and rainbows. Also ask me this when I'm depressed my answer will be opposite, though I'll still believe i'm an idiot a even bigger one than i am now.

 

[meowington]

I'm pretty optimistic but don't believe i'm the best or a genius, rather my optimism is more like we'll be ok in the future even if we aren't now, and things will probably get worse before they get better. also that most people are good but i know that all aren't.I realize its not all puppies and rainbows. Also ask me this when I'm depressed my answer will be opposite, though I'll still believe i'm an idiot a even bigger one than i am now.

Well maybe for me, it's the opposite : on a good sunny day, every other leap year, I can be pretty optimistic too
Like I said earlier, I had to learn tell myself "everything will be ok" every now and then cause I was going mad. And it's working.
Yeah, it all depends a bit on the day were having. The same way nobody is constantly happy.

At times I've thought that 90% of people were untrustworthy, unreliable, or plain idiots, but fortunately that has changed to well below 50%. (Who am I to say anyway right ?)
So at least I think I'm more optimistic than I used to be.

Also, related to what you said : overall there's never been a better time to live than now imho (doesn't make everything ok, but that's something I always keep in mind).
But despite that, I'm pretty pessimistic in terms of the collective. I think as a whole we never learn.

 

[Coriolis]

At times I've thought that 90% of people were untrustworthy, unreliable, or plain idiots, but fortunately that has changed to well below 50%. (Who am I to say anyway right ?)
So at least I think I'm more optimistic than I used to be.

I'm still probably closer to that 90%, but that's why one makes contingency plans. I associate a confidence level with the promises and commitments of others, and make sure I can cover things if they don't follow through. It is sad how often I need to do this.

 

[prplchknz]

Well maybe for me, it's the opposite : on a good sunny day, every other leap year, I can be pretty optimistic too
Like I said earlier, I had to learn tell myself "everything will be ok" every now and then cause I was going mad. And it's working.
Yeah, it all depends a bit on the day were having. The same way nobody is constantly happy.

At times I've thought that 90% of people were untrustworthy, unreliable, or plain idiots, but fortunately that has changed to well below 50%. (Who am I to say anyway right ?)
So at least I think I'm more optimistic than I used to be.

Also, related to what you said : overall there's never been a better time to live than now imho (doesn't make everything ok, but that's something I always keep in mind).
But despite that, I'm pretty pessimistic in terms of the collective. I think as a whole we never learn.

that's less than every 8 years


yup things are never as good or as bad as the world wants us to believe, but i choose to focus on the good but knowing that some of it still sucks.

 

[iwakar]

Optimism and pessimism are defense mechanisms that may inhibit our ability to deal with things as they actually are because we get stuck at how we prefer to see them.

 

[meowington]

I'm still probably closer to that 90%, but that's why one makes contingency plans. I associate a confidence level with the promises and commitments of others, and make sure I can cover things if they don't follow through. It is sad how often I need to do this.

Yeah I know what you mean but those contingency plans are exhausting. I think this is pretty typical for INxJ types (or 6s or 1s). We think things through in depth (because yeah, if we don't, nobody will).
I pretty much had a burnout last year. It forced me to say "fuck it" every now and then.

 

[Lark]

No, it is human psychology. Mood and expectations are tied to motivations and one's willingness to persevere in making something happen. If one knows one has the drive and tenacity to keep at a difficult task, this can be factored in as a resource, much like money, time, information, etc. This, however, depends on an established track record of doing the same, otherwise it is just wishful thinking.

How would you relate that to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

Do you mean to suggest "Its all in the mind"? This seems very close to The Secret, Law of Attraction, Cosmic Ordering territory, which I would have thought would be pretty intolerable superstition especially for anyone in tune with the pop atheism of the forum, not saying you are but I'm surprised at how inconsistent a lot of the thinking on the forum really is from one topic to another.

 

[Lark]

Optimism and pessimism are defense mechanisms that may inhibit our ability to deal with things as they actually are because we get stuck at how we prefer to see them.

I'm not sure I would describe them as defence mechanisms but I take your point, the could be part of rationalisations after the fact, maybe biases and pre-dispositions would be a fairer description.

What I think is certain is that some neurologists have said that there are internal scripts, akin to a "well worn path" in a field that most people take because it is well worn rather than cross were the grass is waist height, these "scripts" could also be described as "simple heuristics" or "automatic thinking", I dont want to stray beyond what I remember for definite about all this but there is something about the capacity of the brain to forge new "scripts" being effected by brain chemistry. I'm not sure about what assists or impedes this process, I think I remember reading that cardio can influence it and endorphin production post strenuous exercise, particularly weight lifting, but I'm not sure.

 

[Snow as White]

I have a love/hate relationship with optimism. My SO is far more optimistic than I am, and sometimes I get annoyed. It tends to feel fakey after awhile for me, like a lie we tell ourselves just to survive.

I can relate to this far too well on both my personal relationship and having an SO like this.

Sometimes I will see a terrible envisioning of What Can Go Wrong. And I tell this to him. And he's like, eh we'll be fine. Me, but how will we be fine. him, we just will be.

And infuriatingly he's been right so far. To the point where I want to just burn the world down so that I can turn and be like, see? mmhmm! now what should we do for dinner?

 

[iwakar]

I'm not sure I would describe them as defence mechanisms but I take your point, the could be part of rationalisations after the fact, maybe biases and pre-dispositions would be a fairer description.

What I think is certain is that some neurologists have said that there are internal scripts, akin to a "well worn path" in a field that most people take because it is well worn rather than cross were the grass is waist height, these "scripts" could also be described as "simple heuristics" or "automatic thinking", I dont want to stray beyond what I remember for definite about all this but there is something about the capacity of the brain to forge new "scripts" being effected by brain chemistry. I'm not sure about what assists or impedes this process, I think I remember reading that cardio can influence it and endorphin production post strenuous exercise, particularly weight lifting, but I'm not sure.

All fair points. I spoke lazily. They can be defense mechanisms, but that's not exclusively their point of origin, so on that we agree. My focus was limited to that vein due to the nature of OP's post.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I can relate to this far too well on both my personal relationship and having an SO like this.

Sometimes I will see a terrible envisioning of What Can Go Wrong. And I tell this to him. And he's like, eh we'll be fine. Me, but how will we be fine. him, we just will be.

And infuriatingly he's been right so far. To the point where I want to just burn the world down so that I can turn and be like, see? mmhmm! now what should we do for dinner?

Hahahaha!

 

[cascadeco]

Naive, not necessarily; I think by disposition people usually lean one way or another, and some are extremely optimistic or pessimistic, but too, I think in the more middling cases it CAN be more of a choice -- of choosing to focus more on positives vs negatives, or vice versa, where the people ARE aware of the opposite elements but they're choosing to focus on the positive/negative vs the opposite for a variety of reasons, whether circumstantial or something else.

But optimists who are blind to the negatives or don't put enough weight on the negatives that are really an issue I think are naive, and I have the same issues with total pessimists -- I'm not able to deal with extreme pessimists, I think they're totally naive in the opposite way -- naive to good things happening or oblivious to the good things in life.