Self-esteem and religious and moral traditions

[Lark]

What do you think of the statement Almost every great religious and moral tradition throughout history has regarded any significant degree of self-love with grave suspicion ?

I'm reading a book presently which challenges the precepts or principles of much of the self-help genre, I'm not that far into the book as I am simultaneously reading a couple of others on similar themes but this struck as something I'd like to discuss a little.

Before getting to this point the author introduced two other authors and research indicating that contrary to some of the received or popular wisdom about low self-esteem producing delinquent, aggressive or bullying behaviour it was discovered that high self esteem was not liable to deter delinquency, that higher self-esteem is correlated with propensity for aggression and not the reverse, that bullies are often not hiding a secret shame about themselves with their behaviour.

Now he did use the example of dictators which I always think is a little exceptional, though the point that Saddam and Hitler didnt appear to be suffering from low self-esteem about themselves is probably safe enough.

Anyway, do you think this is a correct observation about religious and moral traditions? There is ample evidence for it in writings exorting to humility and humbling oneself after all. Also, if it should be correct, do you think it is a good or a bad thing? Understandably this may be highly coloured by your experiences of religious people and religious traditions, if so, could you say so? Does the caution about higher self esteem reflect what is a genuine insight about human nature or do you think that it is rooted in some sort of unconscious neuroticism?

 

[ceecee]

I would agree. I would also like to obliterate the belief that one cannot possess a moral or ethical compass without religion. I would disagree with your assessment of Hitler and his self-esteem. He was all about low self-esteem and high self-hatred which is a big reason he needed the chemical assistance he did, particularly in the last two years of the war. I don't know enough about Saddam to comment.

 

[Avocado]

Self-esteem is irrelevant. Action is motivated by self-interest and some people channel that desire to serve themselves into actions which make others resent them. “Evil” is more due to poor planning than anything. History is written by the victors, after all.

 

[Lark]

I would agree. I would also like to obliterate the belief that one cannot possess a moral or ethical compass without religion. I would disagree with your assessment of Hitler and his self-esteem. He was all about low self-esteem and high self-hatred which is a big reason he needed the chemical assistance he did, particularly in the last two years of the war. I don't know enough about Saddam to comment.

Really, that's a belief, eh?

 

[ceecee]

Really, that's a belief, eh?

You need to get out and talk to people more.

 

[Qlip]

I'd change your statement very slightly and say: Almost every successful religious and moral tradition throughout history has regarded any significant degree of self-love with grave suspicion.

And I'd further define success as its number of adherents and ability to propagate. I remember back in the 90's before it had the meaning it had today of reading about Dawkin's concept of the 'meme' in The Mind's I, a collection of essays about self and the mind. Meme essentially meaning a self-propagating idea. It gave me a whole knew lens with which to think about religion. It makes sense that as a viral entity, religion must hook onto various psychological receptors in order to infect/propagate, a primary infection vector is to feel special and accepted by means of religion, and a primary propagation vector is subjugation to the group and authority. Our minds being then primed, the meme (religion) can feed in further instructions for its own survival and multiplication.

 

[LightSun]

To have pride or think too much of oneself is a false ego and is not the true self which realizes the interrelation of all life. As such when one reaches this stage one has an Agape love for all life. Here is something else to ponder. In developing as a child one must learn to have an ego and develop a sense of self identity in addition to self-esteem in the world in which we live in. As an adult, on the path, or I should say a path, for there are many paths to the top of the mountain, we must learn to let go of our ego's and transcend both it as well as our fears.

We must learn to let go of defensiveness and listen with an open heart, to be receptive, warm and open. We need to learn transparency and openness in order to heal. I think it can be thought of like our turtles crawling to the sea. It’s the phenomenon of a self-actualization. We strive and we grow, ever on toward new discoveries, new knowledge and a deeper and truer love of one's self, others and the greater reality we live in.

 

[Coriolis]

What do you think of the statement Almost every great religious and moral tradition throughout history has regarded any significant degree of self-love with grave suspicion ?

I'm reading a book presently which challenges the precepts or principles of much of the self-help genre, I'm not that far into the book as I am simultaneously reading a couple of others on similar themes but this struck as something I'd like to discuss a little.

Before getting to this point the author introduced two other authors and research indicating that contrary to some of the received or popular wisdom about low self-esteem producing delinquent, aggressive or bullying behaviour it was discovered that high self esteem was not liable to deter delinquency, that higher self-esteem is correlated with propensity for aggression and not the reverse, that bullies are often not hiding a secret shame about themselves with their behaviour.

Now he did use the example of dictators which I always think is a little exceptional, though the point that Saddam and Hitler didnt appear to be suffering from low self-esteem about themselves is probably safe enough.

Anyway, do you think this is a correct observation about religious and moral traditions? There is ample evidence for it in writings exorting to humility and humbling oneself after all. Also, if it should be correct, do you think it is a good or a bad thing? Understandably this may be highly coloured by your experiences of religious people and religious traditions, if so, could you say so? Does the caution about higher self esteem reflect what is a genuine insight about human nature or do you think that it is rooted in some sort of unconscious neuroticism?

I cannot speak for other religions, but the Bible at least contains plenty of verses showing the value of human beings in the eyes of God, everything from being made in God's image to the familiar verse about the lilies of the field and the birds: "Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? " I'm not sure, then, that we can conclude that religions oppose self love. You can certainly love yourself as a creation/child of God, while revering God as far greater still.

As for the role of self-esteem (or lack thereof) in problem behavior, it is all a balance. I prefer a middle ground between pride and humility, which is simply accurate self-knowledge. If you have an honest and accurate grasp on both your strengths and weaknesses, you will know when to defer to others and when to take the lead; when to follow advice, and when to give it.

 

[sLiPpY]

The Gauls, and other pre-Christian indo-European tribes, where known to honor/respect the defeated by taking care of the (for lack of a better term) disposal, as if they were of their own. An aspect that made the earliest Abrahamic invasion of Western thought so much easier; Esus means "Good Master, the respected one, or Lord. The concept was already part of a Trinity that included Taranis the "thunder god", etc. All Indo-European tribes held similar conceptions under regionally varying names. i.e. Ing/Freyr, has a similar meaning to Esus as a concept implying "Lord." There are several historical poetic examples, where Biblical stories were cast in such a way as to imply a co-relation between Old Testament events, so that Anglo-Saxons might perceive Hebrews as being more like them. Nothing new under the Son/Sun.