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  1. #1
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    Default Truth:What is ultimate truth?Can we understand truth?Why do we kill people over truth

    Truth:What is ultimate truth? Can we understand truth? Why do we kill people over truth?



    "Our minds thus grow in spots ; and like grease spots, the spots spread. But they spread a little as possible : we keep unaltered as much of our old knowledge, as many as our old prejudices and beliefs, as we can. We patch and tinker more than we renew. The novelty soaks in ; it stains the ancient mass ; but it is also tinged by what it absorbs." William James

    "There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragments by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cell by cell like a laboring mosaic." Anais Nin
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  2. #2
    De Ore Leonis Coriolis's Avatar
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    We tend to kill people over subjective truths, failing to understand or to accept their inherent subjectivity.
    Judex ergo cum sedebit,
    Quidquid latet apparebit.
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  3. #3
    To the waters of the wild Siúil a Rún's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think truth is sitting still in the quiet and letting go of all assumptions, and entering a state of simply being.

    Sometimes it seems like theories and ideas are exactly what blinds humans to reality.
    I wish I was on yonder hill 'tis there I'd sit and cry my fill, And every tear would turn a mill, Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.
    I'll sell my rock, I'll sell my reel, I'll sell my only spinning wheel, To buy my love a sword of steel Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.
    I wish, I wish, I wish in vain, I wish I had my heart again, And vainly think I'd not complain, Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.

  4. #4
    Senior Member deathwarmedup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post

    Sometimes it seems like theories and ideas are exactly what blinds humans to reality.
    I think our mode of consciousness blinds us to reality and our propensity towards ideas and theories and cultures are a by-product of that. I think our mode of consciousness is determined in large part (but not exclusively) by our evolutionary niche. Aside from why we kill people over truth, I'm interested in why we construct and adhere to cultures, which is arguably a sort of reframing of the question. Why are cultures so powerful and so necessary?
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathwarmedup View Post
    I'm interested in why we construct and adhere to cultures, which is arguably a sort of reframing of the question. Why are cultures so powerful and so necessary?
    A healthy use of intuition to answer questions like these are also powerful and necessary.

    Cultures are the social glue in which we use to survive. As an aside, I find it interesting that "Diversity" is celebrated except when diversity is practiced to its inevitable end.



    I bet there is a language and culture that the people of Personality Type forums like TypologyCentral also adhere to which seems strange to an outsider.

  6. #6
    Senior Member deathwarmedup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post

    Cultures are the social glue in which we use to survive.
    I think that's unlikely to be an exhaustive explanation. Cultural differences can range the gamut from minor differences in how different groups within one animal species perform a simple task or behaviour to various belief systems among humans. The former could be completely arbitrary, practical solutions by isolated animal kin groups that are continued through mimicry, while the latter can provide psychological grounding in the face of perceived chaos. Then there's everything in between. I think their necessity is largely exaggerated and their power lies in their almost exclusive appeal to the the emotional mind rather than the rational mind.

    I bet there is a language and culture that the people of Personality Type forums like TypologyCentral also adhere to which seems strange to an outsider.
    I'm sure there is but I'm largely oblivious to it.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathwarmedup View Post
    I think that's unlikely to be an exhaustive explanation. Cultural differences can range the gamut from minor differences in how different groups within one animal species perform a simple task or behaviour to various belief systems among humans. The former could be completely arbitrary, practical solutions by isolated animal kin groups that are continued through mimicry, while the latter can provide psychological grounding in the face of perceived chaos. Then there's everything in between. I think their necessity is largely exaggerated and their power lies in their almost exclusive appeal to the the emotional mind rather than the rational mind.
    I think most of your expansion of my concise statement regarding culture is fairly intuitive, which was my point to begin with. Even toddlers figure out the basics of play/socializing.

    Why are you communicating in English instead of a language of your own invention? Would you say it's because you have an emotional attachment to the English language, or that in order to communicate your thoughts effectively it would be rational to communicate in the language others speak? A little of both?

  8. #8
    Member jamain's Avatar
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    I find this topic very interesting. I've been involved in a similar discussion on another forum. You're coming at it from a slightly different angle. The other discussion I've been involved in is about finding and confirming truth. Yours looks at whether we can understand it. I don't have much time right now so I'm going to cheat a bit and copy my response from the other discussion I've been involved in.



    I find it is near impossible to know conclusively that one has the truth. It is impossible to find sources of information that are completely free of biases. The fact that there is bias does not mean that something is not true, but it does complicate the process.

    I often find myself questioning whether I'm buying into information as the truth because it validates what I prefer to believe. (although many things I believe likely to be true, aren't necessarily what I prefer to believe) The truth is not determined by any of the following...

    *what is popular and widely accepted as truth
    *what makes us comfortable
    *what we prefer to believe

    Being fully aware of the tendency of many to accept things as truth based on the above criteria, does not guarantee that one can arrive at the truth. Is it even possible for us to know that we absolutely have the truth? I'm not so sure that we can ever without a doubt know that we have it. Trying to arrive at the truth can send one into endless thought loops. At least it does for me. Eventually I go with what seems most likely to be the truth, but I'm often looking back over my shoulder wondering if I missed something.

    Sharing a link to an article that I thought was interesting. Philosophy News | What is Truth?

    I think another question we have to ask ourselses is do we really want the truth? Do we love the truth enough to accept that it may not tell us what we want it to?

    Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it.
    Blaise Pascal
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  9. #9
    Senior Member deathwarmedup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post
    I think most of your expansion of my concise statement regarding culture is fairly intuitive, which was my point to begin with. Even toddlers figure out the basics of play/socializing.
    It wasn't an expansion on your point. A paleolithic woman didn't braid her hair to survive anymore than my father wore flares in the 70s to survive. Conversely, incest taboos are cultural survival mechanisms that are unnecessary to social cohesion.
    Why are you communicating in English instead of a language of your own invention? Would you say it's because you have an emotional attachment to the English language, or that in order to communicate your thoughts effectively it would be rational to communicate in the language others speak? A little of both?
    Neither. My parents didn't give me any option. Why did Kamikaze pilots perform a ritual ceremony before their final flight? Why didn't they just get in their cockpits and go, when it was supposedly such a cost-effective method of war?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathwarmedup View Post
    It wasn't an expansion on your point. A paleolithic woman didn't braid her hair to survive anymore than my father wore flares in the 70s to survive.
    Ah, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. (How would anyone know if paleolithic woman braided their hair or not?) How sure are you that hairstyles don't have a utilitarian purpose as well as aesthetic choices, tribal markers, etc? I'm assuming your father wore flares in the 70s because that was the fashion at the time. Maybe he liked the flares? Maybe he did it to pick up chicks? Maybe there is a social influence to it? In that case, avoidance social ostracization is a valid reason. You're a smart fella, I'm sure you won't need me to spell out our evolutionary repulsion to being ostracized by the tribe, and how that influences our survival.

    A lot of this stuff is subconscious.

    Conversely, incest taboos are cultural survival mechanisms that are unnecessary to social cohesion.
    Sounds progressive.

    Neither. My parents didn't give me any option.


    Why did Kamikaze pilots perform a ritual ceremony before their final flight? Why didn't they just get in their cockpits and go, when it was supposedly such a cost-effective method of war?
    I don't know. Why did they?

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