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  1. #31
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Fiend View Post
    Your error is you're looking for an answer with a clean neat bow.
    I've an answer which consists of Ultimate Truth. I'm sure you've heard of it.

    That's your answer.
    Your answer.

    Philosophy wouldn't be philosophy if it had clear absolute answers.
    Postmodern philosophy - Wikipedia :

    Postmodern philosophy questions the importance of power relationships, personalization, and discourse in the "construction" of truth and world views. Many postmodernists appear to deny that an objective reality exists, and appear to deny that there are objective moral values.

    Postmodernist philosophers in general argue that truth is always contingent on historical and social context rather than being absolute and universal and that truth is always partial and "at issue" rather than being complete and certain.
    There you go.

  2. #32
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    Truth just is, like the Now, Present Moment; like a photograph, it can contain many shapes and colors, but the photo itself, just exists. It is the mind then, that interprets the photo, and attributes or derives meaning from it, based on the individual's memory and personal experience relative to the photo, it's contents and all associations. Some memories can be potent and emotionally impacting, positive or negative.

    We do the same towards everything, not just photos, but people and their world views, past, present and possible events and if this process clashes with the individual's existing belief system, it can it trigger a violent response. When you mix people in a society, the process overlaps and rebounds like ripples from multiple stones hitting a lake.

    Likes Tater, lightsun liked this post

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathwarmedup View Post
    Because our "truths" are often in a conflict of interests with other's "truths", e.g. divided allegiances within a sovereign state.

    Because of the self-serving nature of a status quo: a racist ideology may confer advantages on a privileged minority.

    Because rival "truths" threaten our sense of identity, e.g. competing cosmologies.

    Because the security of conformity exerts a strong pull on many.

    Because of the psychological power of attachments, highlighted in Buddhism, and the fear of the emotional void created when they are broken.

    Because rival "truths" are sometimes highlighted as convenient labels for rival groups in underlying disputes, such as resource competitions.

    Because of our toxic susceptibility to ideas.
    Why do we kill people over truth?

    deathwarmedup wrote, (all quotes by deathwarmedup followed by reply). (1) "Because our "truths" are often...conflict interests with other's "truths"..."

    I agree. I have a saying, "What I Feel, Think and Believe to be Passionately true may in fact not be the truth at all. This is in stark contrast to uncontested objective facts replicated by scientific testing. If it is subjective belief, that is all it is a personal belief as yet not tested by science or proven.

    (2) "self-serving nature ...a status quo: a racist ideology...confer advantages...privileged minority."

    Many of socieital mores and cultual beliefs will have to weather the test of time and new scientific discoveries about ourselves, others and the universe.

    (3) "...rival "truths" threaten our sense of identity, e.g. competing cosmologies." and "...security... conformity exerts a strong pull on many."

    Indeed it is an almost visceral and instinctive response to suggest changes to the status quo as it exists. The term is cognitive dissonance and the person will still go believing an outdated and disproved belief that is contrary to his or her own belief system. This is to alleviate anxiety but in the long term analysis it is harmful and a barrier to societal change.

    (4) "...psychological power of attachments, highlighted in Buddhism, and the fear of the emotional void created when they are broken."

    There is a saying to not seek and change something but to make it better.

    (5) '....our toxic susceptibility to ideas."

    We are a reactive species and not proactive. We typically react only when danger is thrust upon us and we have a national emergency. People in general don't change. The caveat is if a person experiences a life altering event, it may push the person to re-examine their beliefs, values and priorities.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I would suggest, our efforts are better spent asking what value those “truths” hold for us, and why those “truths” must be valid and contain a level of certainty within us, rather than analyzing truth itself.

    What truth actually is, objective truth that is, I don’t believe we will ever fully know, or recognize it if we were to see it with our own eyes as we're all imbued with various levels of subjective bias. That bias then, and being able to accept it, or not, is where man can find himself askew from objective reality and must contend with the reality of “falsely” existing. Which, if you ask me, is perfectly fine, to be “falsely” existing as we’re really all just communicating and navigating the world and each other through perception anyways.

    Eh, that’s actually a fairly decent summary of my world perspective at least...now where is that “world view” thread?? I can just copy and paste this there too...

    Oh, and forgot to add (before my mind veers TOO far off course) simply, those that kill or harm others over those “truths” are those that have not come to an innner peace with the reality I’ve described above.
    Truth:What is ultimate truth? Can we understand truth? Why do we kill people over truth?

    Dreamer wrote, (all quotes are Dreamer's followed by my own reply) (1) "...suggest, our efforts are better spent asking what value those “truths” hold...why those “truths” must be valid ... contain a level of certainty within us, rather ... analyzing truth..."

    I believe in objective scientific facts. There are elements in truths that hold some value but may be a cognitive distortion such as all or nothing thinking or generalyzing.

    (2) "...truth actually is, objective truth...I don’t believe we will ever fully know, or recognize it if we were to see it with our own eyes as we're all imbued with various levels of subjective bias."

    Excellent Dreamer. Yes our perceptions in life and reality can grow, can expand, deepen and broaden provided we have an open curious mind. Metaphorically speaking when I write, I dive to the depths of the sea and come back to the surface with new found wisdom or insights through reflection, meditation and mindfulness.

    (3) "...bias then...accept it, or not, is where man can find himself askew from objective reality and must contend with the reality of “falsely” existing."

    It is to make the unconscious conscious so that when we act it is thought out with critical reason and not reacting to a situation with emotion. Both Cognitive Behavior alongside Rational Emotive Behavior in the west psychology do practices akin a mindful Buddhist approach. All seek uncover our subconscious and make it become accessible in thought to make wiser conscious choice and decision. It is a part in the actualizing one's inner self to be conscious and awakened versus led by internal discrepancy of undisciplined auto thought as well behavior being directed by an unconscious.

    Most of our behavior is automatic, therefore subconsciously driven in degree by distortions of thought, self, & reality. In a sense we are not awake yet. Both cognitive therapy and Buddhism imply that we really need to wake up by being more aware of how we think, speak and act. In this way we discover the falsehoods within us as they really relate to reality. I use as a metaphor the engine light in a car. If it is on, it implies there is an internal problem. It is a reflection of unfinished business and unresolved conflict.

    Our emotions are triggered. This is an opportunity for growth however if we reflect and take pains to act with reason and not react towards reality in an irrational manner or by being negative. We in effect take personal responsibility and act with an internal locus of control. If we experience a negative emotion there are distortions and fallacies of thought and cognitive reasoning. A goal is being more aware in both cognitive science and Buddhism. We become aware of our subconscious thought process and do not react blindly in an automatic fashion. We become more truly aware of both ourselves and reality and so grow mentally, emotionally and spiritually. We become awake and reach a heaven on earth, nirvana and personal self-actualization. The bottom line really we will become happier in life. I would recommend 'Feeling Good' by David Burns, 1980 to get into learned cognitive discipline.

    (4) "...is perfectly fine, to be “falsely” existing... we’re really all just communicating and navigating the world and each other through perception anyways."

    I disagree. With this notion no growth or evolution of societies laws can be made. We must learn to think cr first. Then we need to question and re-examine the beliefs we hold and see if they stand to scientific scrutiny.

    (5) "...those that kill or harm others over those “truths” are those that have not come to an innner peace with the reality I’ve described above."

    Why is it we kill self-aware people? Self-aware people see peace, not only of thought, but living it. Examples we killed are Socrates, Gandhi, Jesus, & Martin Luther King Jr. Why do we kill them? I call it cognitive dissonance. A certain sick person can't stand hearing truth, because it reveals their own shortcomings. The sick person feels they can never reach the ideals set before them, so they kill the mirror of truth."

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