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What do you believe?

ceecee

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Do you not find that people dismissing isms are among the greatest unconscious or unawares advocates of some ism after all?

I tend to find that anyway, do you think that Ferris' speech is a Generation Xer speech BTW?

Everything about Ferris is Gen X - it came out the year I graduated from HS. I'm going keep the discussion and my opinions to theisms (and anti-theism). Other isms probably have their own threads.
 

Jaguar

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"I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually true.... There may be people who wish to live their lives under cradle-to-grave divine supervision, a permanent surveillance and monitoring. But I cannot imagine anything more horrible or grotesque."

--- Christopher Hitchens


Absolutely.
 

Lark

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Absolutely.

Interesting thing about that? I'm a theist and I agree entirely with that. Its his nightmare, not my dream. I've stopped talking for some mass of vaguely defined "theists" or "theism" as its a bit pointless.
 

deathwarmedup

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I try to limit my adherence to ideas because our vulnerability to ideas is one if the most defining and most toxic features of our species, perhaps the key feature, even more so than language.

Ideas and beliefs are the ugly underbelly of our greatest attributes, rationality and values (discernment). So beyond the things that can be proven, one concept that I'll entertain is the esoteric one of the Intellect and the Heart. Rationality and Value. Two emergent properties of our evolution that seem to me to be more than the sum of their parts.

Religion and atheism are ideas. One exalts the crude intellect over crude emotion and the other exalts crude emotion over the crude intellect. Both lack discernment. And I think that ultimately, both lack rationality.

So I try to keep an open mind. I've had a religion and lost it; had a mystical experience of a binding cosmic love and arbitrarily lost someone to a terrible disease; encountered esoteric teachings full of mathematical beauty and psychological resonance and reflected on what a grotesque, absurd and arbitrary accident of evolution our species is. “God's children”. It would take a god to love them, for sure.

Is this one of billions of universes? Is a universe of famines and leprosy and Auschwitz the most profound stage for the first realisation of a spiritual reality? Is love amoral? Does it suffuse all of matter? Are we ultimately spiritual but anthopomorphically egocentric? Are we in a “bio-consciousness”, of which we are a much smaller component than we assume? A deeper intelligence and sentience to which our concepts and language contribute, rather than supersede? Healing plants and ayahuasca vines that speak to my subconscious? Swirling pre-historic shamans and “DNA” helices on cave walls? Deep physics? Is time an illusion? Can 14 billion years be a blink in God's eye? --- I'm out of my depth.

I've got more questions than beliefs.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Religion and atheism are ideas. One exalts the crude intellect over crude emotion and the other exalts crude emotion over the crude intellect. Both lack discernment. And I think that ultimately, both lack rationality.

I've made it a goal in my life to attempt to refine and distill those crude idea impulses as they manifest in my consciousness, then to apply some sort of rationality and logic to achieve some nuanced balance. I've always felt a pull between atheism and religion or at least some sort of spirituality, so I've become acutely aware of how both religion and atheism are more often blunt force ideas than fine tuned applications or tools.


I appreciate your articulation.
 

VILLANELLE

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God, I don't know what that is. God just sort of is, although I didn't grow up religious, I believed everyone prayed to God. I automatically assumed I was a Christian for many years, I thought it was the default.

I keep my mind open and I'm open to different religions and beliefs now. I find Philosophy to be very interesting.
 

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You could say I believe in everything, but to believe in everything you have to believe in nothing.

eyes-of-a-child.jpg
 

ceecee

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Where Do Atheists Get Meaning in Life? | RealClearScience

Speed's research suggests that atheists aren't the purposeless, depressed bunch that many believers brand them to be. More and more, people seem to be finding that out for themselves. Prominent surveys are showing that belief in God and religious affiliation is waning in America as well as most of the rest of the world.
 

deathwarmedup

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I think "meaning" is intrinsically woven through an individual's psychic structure. Loosely speaking, I think it's the "schizoid" kind of character structure that is vulnerable to nihilism in the neurotic levels of development. Given a healthy relationship with your belief system, the nature of the system won't affect your visceral sense of meaning and value. I think it's when an individual has been attached to a meaning-giving belief system and the accustomed attachment becomes threatened (for example by a growing cognitive dissonance) that a crisis of meaning can ensue. I think atheists would be most immune to this, obviously: I don't see anyone intellectually proving them wrong anytime soon.

I have explored atheism as a "thought experiment". The moral freedom and intellectual hygiene were certainly refreshing, but I don't think I'm constitutionally suited to it. And there are just too many mysterious phenomena in the universe beyond those proffered by religion.
 

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What religion do you follow, if any? Do you believe in God? Do you believe something else? Did you have any experiences in your life that have shaped your beliefs?
Feel free to discuss whatever you are comfortable with. I am just very curious about all of this.

I was born again at Nazarene Church and later attended Brentwood Baptist church. I am currently agnostic if not atheist in nature. I believe we are matter and energy physical beings and that we die. I am uncertain of Soul. But there has been no compelling answer for it nor has it been proven by science. There is no heaven where you exist immortally knowing the loves of your past life. Nor is there reincarnation. The universe is a cosmic force. It is neither conscious or loving. Things happen. That's reality. We are a product of Nature, Nurture and life's experiences.

I am for humanitarian goals of education, children, environment, lessening the gap between the super rich and poor, health care and increasing our happiness quota ratio. I am an existentialist in that I take everything I have assimilated in life and grow in depth and breadth. I like the Buddhist mindfulness approach. It parallels nicely the West's R.E.B.T. (Rational Behavior Therapy) and C.B.T. (Cognitive Behavior Therapy. It helps one get in contact into one's subconscious thoughts and make better decisions without cognitive distortions of thought, speech or writing.

I believe the school system should teach cognitive mindfulness and critical thinking along with empathy skills at an early age in our school systems. Happier people with a Happier, saner society. These are proactive thoughts and actions that still need to be done. This instead of the reactionary nature of our species. We already have the largest prison system in the world. If we did preventative methods it could alleviate a lot of suffering both for individuals and the harm they cause others in society.
 

LightSun

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If I had to sum up my beliefs its very complicated but basically I think all spiritual and religious things have equal existence like Abrahamic God and Zeus and Loki are all to me valid entities that exist but I think they kind of feed from belief and worship so Abharmic God with a few billion worshippers (I count Christians,Muslims and Jews as all worshipping the same God just doing it differently a bit like cooking as you can steam,grill,fry,bake e.t.c but the general principle remains the same) is the most powerful in essence. As for me personally I dont practice any religion but I do pray to God and try my best to follow basic Christian ideals that just happen to crisis cross with my outlook on life.

Cat Brainz wrote, (all quotes are Cat Brainz followed by my comments): (1) "...sum up my beliefs....................................I think all spiritual and religious things have equal existence like Abrahamic God and Zeus and Loki are all to me valid entities that exist." and (2)...feed from belief...worship so Abrahamic God with a few billion worshipers (I count Christians,Muslims and Jews as all worshiping the same God just doing it differently a bit.


Are you saying you equate Yahweh, Odin and Zeus as being synonymous or one and the same? It's a thought I've entertained as well. I can in an abstract way put this metaphor in place as these 'concepts' being equivalent. I don't however believe these concepts to be true. None. These are all stories originating in the oral tradition of the bronze age. I've reviewed science documentaries that say human beings have a propensity to be superstitious. I go by hard science and objective facts which are proven.

(3) "... practice any religion...I do pray ...God ...follow basic Christian ideals ..."


I have read all the worlds religious texts and taken the best from them. From the Bible my favorite Book is The Gospel of John. In the Old Testament I like Proverbs. I as an existentialist take all I've assimilated and learned and continue to grow. I say I am on my Path and it is the Journey which is important for there are many ways to the mountain top. To walk this Talk I've developed a core philosophy for my travels.

A philosophy which I've as choice took as my life journey is and has its roots in: Jesus teaching peace, Buddhism, as well the cognitive theory in a psychology orientation, these are primary; but it happens be my insight as well much knowledge which i have thus assimilated. I am fully aware, philosophy can and possesses some change. Each ladder on a progression to an enlightening state purchase more wisdom; loving nature and on it goes.

I've always thought with a concept: and fixing a standard that if it were allowed fruition-would have a chance to bring a little peace in our way of life. Obviously this is what I personally aspire to. I don't always get it right. Also I am or can be a realist. I will defend myself, but I will use the least amount of energy/force/act necessary. A Path/ A Key / A Way is to follow the golden rule by:

Do not think negative thoughts, but deal with the situation rationally.

Do not speak with negative energy. It is a reflection of you & not the other.

Do not act negatively, but react realistically with the proper restraint even if negative energy is directed at you.

Now we influence each other with positive or negative energy. In this universe for every action there is an equal reaction. So the natural tendency is to repay negative energy with more negative energy.
This feels very good and we feel self- righteous about it. After all the other is in the wrong and not us. In our mind the other is blind and does evil, immoral, wrong words or actions. But the key is that it is irrelevant to one's path. The key is that being negative in even the slightest is a true reflection of self and not the other. The other's path is their destiny.

Perhaps they were sent here to test our mettle in the face of crisis or misfortunes, thus there is a chance with growth if we only but bend our own beliefs to embrace a truer reality. Now this next part coming is partly from cognitive behavior principles. A key is that if we have a negative emotion, we are ruled by a distortion. The external even triggered:

A. What is in us waiting to come to the surface in a testing moment.
B. Triggered or own unfinished childhood issues and emotions
C. We are reacting in a lesser manner.

We are reacting against ghosts from the past that this moment has triggered so that we can grow and move on to the path of self-actualization. That is if we choose the higher road and we need endeavor to act maturely and with restraint. If I hurt you, I hurt myself, perhaps not noticeably, but I missed an opportunity for growth. If we do not sink to the others level. Perhaps it will take longer for them on the path of life to mature, reflect, and with insight grow. If we think, speak, or act in a negative manner then the opportunity is lost.

The message is lost, but it will undoubtedly reappear until you learn the lesson about you. This moment in space and time was brought together for you to learn this valuable lesson of self, in order to grow and actualize. Do not throw this precious moment away by reacting with your baser instincts. Reach, grow, become. Reach for this inner learning. Grow with this wisdom and become what you were meant to be.
I do believe in what’s of the nature (1) Transparency, (2) Free Will (That is no one person should try and impose their view to your being. (3) Independence in our walking path or way and each person has a different path.”
 

Nomendei

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I don’t believe in god, unless there are evidences of him. Now, I believe that we are the result of actions through time. I don’t think we have a purpose, and I don’t think there is life after death. We are just atoms and energy, put together to create life. I once was an apple, a mouse, stone, salt in the food of a king. I once was a star, a sword, a dinosaur, a fish, another man and even a pizza. The fact is that matter can not be created, and the matter that makes my body once was something else. To the rest of the universe, I’m nothing. That’s why I am who I am. Why some people call me crazy. I am profiting of the chance I have having formed a human being, having the ability to move and interact at my own will. To be honest, I don’t think anyone is important. Not even me. And thus, I am free. Every bad thing I did and will do will be forgotten. Every bad memory I have will be erased. I can do everything I want without being restrained by morals. I don’t get offended, because the people who are trying to offence me are unimportant, so I laugh. If something bad happens, I laugh. It can seem a bit stupid or crazy, but I don’t want to lose time if bad emotions. One day, I will be dead, my atoms will form something else, and I will not be able to have regrets. Why others are stressed, cry, depress and torment themselves about their life, I have fun doing whatever comes to my mind. Isn’t that a best way to live?
 

Merced

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I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not there is a god or if there are gods, but it'd be a nicer existence than a godless one. It'd imply that there is life after death, which I want to believe in.

But ignoring the "I don't believe in god because I don't know if I'm right" angle, I like to think that we reincarnate until we live a life that was fulfilling and when we finally do, we go to heaven. I do not believe in hell and I do not believe in organized religion in that there are things a god would enable us to do and then punish us for. I sincerely believe hell was a concept invented by organized religion to make people scared of god instead of loving god, because fear is a much better marketing tool than love.
 

Nomendei

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I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not there is a god or if there are gods, but it'd be a nicer existence than a godless one. It'd imply that there is life after death, which I want to believe in.

But ignoring the "I don't believe in god because I don't know if I'm right" angle, I like to think that we reincarnate until we live a life that was fulfilling and when we finally do, we go to heaven. I do not believe in hell and I do not believe in organized religion in that there are things a god would enable us to do and then punish us for. I sincerely believe hell was a concept invented by organized religion to make people scared of god instead of loving god, because fear is a much better marketing tool than love.

What is heaven for you? and would you die there? because living forever isn't really good, in my opinion. And how big is heaven? Because there are many people who die. I want to understand your ideas. Are there activities to do? I get bored very easily.
 

Merced

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What is heaven for you? and would you die there? because living forever isn't really good, in my opinion. And how big is heaven? Because there are many people who die. I want to understand your ideas. Are there activities to do? I get bored very easily.

I'd imagine heaven is highly dependent on what you would deem is paradise, the same way in theory that hell is what you yourself would deem is torture. I'd also like to think that heaven has a door. You can leave heaven and watch people on Earth or you could even go back and reincarnate (but you'd have to live another good life to get back in).

Hmm.. I think my heaven would closely resemble the world today, but with many things I deem inconveniencing to be gone. You wouldn't have a bladder or a need to eat. You can fly. And it's always daytime, never night. I'd want my heaven to be crowded with other people, but they'd be actual souls. As in, I wouldn't want heaven to come up with people for me like some computer generated nightmare. I'd want my heaven to be a big city with multiple attractions and things to do, maybe a vacation spot for other people if they're bored of their own heaven and don't want to ghost on Earth. I suppose I'd be in charge of it, though I feel silly saying that.

I guess it's pretty telling that my idea of heaven is being mayor of a populated city. :laugh:
 

Lark

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I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not there is a god or if there are gods, but it'd be a nicer existence than a godless one. It'd imply that there is life after death, which I want to believe in.

But ignoring the "I don't believe in god because I don't know if I'm right" angle, I like to think that we reincarnate until we live a life that was fulfilling and when we finally do, we go to heaven. I do not believe in hell and I do not believe in organized religion in that there are things a god would enable us to do and then punish us for. I sincerely believe hell was a concept invented by organized religion to make people scared of god instead of loving god, because fear is a much better marketing tool than love.

I'm not sure that an afterlife is guaranteed by the existence of God or belief in his existence or his having an interest or investment in the fortunes of humanity, I think its possible to form opinions, or even beliefs, about the same, on the basis of tradition, scriptures, miracles, saints, scholars and even personal discernment or conversion experiences but I really do not believe its possible to know this.

I had a conversation with someone who is a very, very committed evangelical protestant, former RC, and solo scripturalist too, his belief boiled down to "this I know because the bible tells me so", at which point I sort of slowly disengaged because the conversation becomes circular and pointless, my point at the time was that the bible is the reported teachings and word of God, the history of the "higher criticism phase", during which solo scripture protestants went to the middle east and discovered the earliest existing bibles or bible sources and discovered a remarkable diversity, disparity and even fanciful gibberish really and truly ought to have put the nail in the coffin of solo scriptural beliefs or congregations. Unfortunately it just sparked atheism and secularism instead.

Though I really do not believe that it can be known for certain, at least not to any but a very, very, very few who will, I believe, suffer by or for that knowledge. The Onion article which featured Michelangelo's painting and the headline "God wonders what happens to humans when they die" summed the point up well for me. Lots of evidence exists that early Jewish believers did not believe in an after life or heaven or hell or simply did not give much thought to it, they merely stated what they knew, that your bones would be gathered to your ancestors, which meant that literally your bones would be added to the pile in the basement. Shaol and other beliefs in an after life or a utopian end of history were all added later (Darren Brown in a book on happiness which concludes stoicism is not a bad idea has pointed out, as a lot of other atheists have started to do, that marxism and a lot of other utopianism of one sort or another borrow much from that religious turn of mind).

For my part I actually believe that some of the early mystics which suggested that all you should do is "walk this earth and know that God is God", meaning that no earthly being could claim to be God, that God himself is largely how Moses Maimonides thought he was, ie noncorporeal, only to be known by what he is not, negative theology and all that, and to give careful thought to the reality that "earth and what is in it is the prize" rather than anything else, least of all "pie in the sky", the promise made for so long to those actually starving in the present, temporal reality. I hope for something more, as prayed in my own tradition, but hope is not to know this, hope is just some faith (yes, it is in a Smashing Pumpkins song, what can I say Melancholy and The Infinite Sadness is full of references unknown to the listeners).

Quantum immortality, to me, appears plausible, that does not mean it is proven, however, if it is fact then it would be a state of reincarnation as you describe. I personally do not believe that reincarnation is impossible, it sounds like purgatory to me, some of the thinking in pure land buddhism reads remarkably similarly to some Christian beliefs among the "desert fathers", ie meditating hermits of the Christian tradition.

I dont believe that hell is a marketing ploy at all, I think, like bliss or heaven, people can experience hell in this life or the next, the thing about hell is that its separation from God, estrangement or alienation from God, which can involve some degree of choice and therefore if there are any locks on the gates of hell then the keys are on the inside, held by all the people who are there. I hope its obvious I'm talking in metaphor.

There are poems and myths about heaven and hell that I've heard which have the ring of wisdom too, one is irish about a protestant who goes to heaven only to discover its a culturally irish and RCC place, they decide to become a ghost rather than go there, another is a story about Hitler going to heaven and he loves the place until he discovers that other than him everyone there is a Jew and he then decides he must be in hell but nothing else has changed about the place. There also is the story about someone visiting hell from this life and discovers everyone is starving but food is plentiful, they can only eat it with oversize spoons which cant reach their mouths, they then go to heaven and discover the exact same situation but people are feeding each other, you see?

Though those stories or analogies I think relate more to how to act while we are alive. I dont like discussions of heaven or hell for the most part because they are projections of ideas about needs and just desserts on to the infinite or God, which is presumptuous in the extreme.

The whole thing about institutionalised or organised religion is I think its a kind of red herring, do you mean when you say that you dont like them that disorganised, spontaneous or chaotic religion is preferrable? It can be more terroristic or flawed, would the Branch Davidians Compound be preferable to the Vatican or Messiah Syndrome experienced by visitors to the holy land/Jerusalem be more valid than a committed sunday church goer? Its like that old rubic response to anarchists that law is not worse than the primitive anarchy that precedes it or a bunch of discussions about AD&D alignment, you know lawful, neutral, chaotic.
 

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The whole thing about institutionalised or organised religion is I think its a kind of red herring, do you mean when you say that you dont like them that disorganised, spontaneous or chaotic religion is preferrable? It can be more terroristic or flawed, would the Branch Davidians Compound be preferable to the Vatican or Messiah Syndrome experienced by visitors to the holy land/Jerusalem be more valid than a committed sunday church goer? Its like that old rubic response to anarchists that law is not worse than the primitive anarchy that precedes it or a bunch of discussions about AD&D alignment, you know lawful, neutral, chaotic.

By organized religion, I mean communities that enforce a set interpretation of religion that often (but not always) requires group activity. I think religion should be a personal or individual thing and when you bring others into it, you make yourself vulnerable. The preferable type of religion is the one that can exist without anyone else telling you anything.
 

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By organized religion, I mean communities that enforce a set interpretation of religion that often (but not always) requires group activity. I think religion should be a personal or individual thing and when you bring others into it, you make yourself vulnerable. The preferable type of religion is the one that can exist without anyone else telling you anything.

I can see that being a recipe for error, mistakens heaped upon mistakes, something like the movie fifty first dates.

Though its not a view that's restricted to religion these days, anything from the minor to the major, is all judged fluid, up for reinvention. Its lead to a sharp divergence between existence and essence, time will tell on it all I reckon.
 

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By organized religion, I mean communities that enforce a set interpretation of religion that often (but not always) requires group activity. I think religion should be a personal or individual thing and when you bring others into it, you make yourself vulnerable. The preferable type of religion is the one that can exist without anyone else telling you anything.
Revealed religions require a charismatic leader, followed by a bureaucracy, that is, a settled institution that continues into the future.
 

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What religion do you follow, if any? Do you believe in God? Do you believe something else?

Did you have any experiences in your life that have shaped your beliefs?

Feel free to discuss whatever you are comfortable with. I am just very curious about all of this.
I follow the Jehovah's Witness. I'm extremely skeptical and of scientific mind and I find constant struggles with this religion I'm following, but at times there's common themes. I do believe in god. I believe the universe mightmay be ordered in not a dissimilar fashion as a network administrator sets up a series of virtual machines. If we're inside a big virtual machine we might not know it.

I've never had a religious experience, apart from the wish I might live a life of harmony with many others.
 
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