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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    War can be necessary in self-defense, there is nothing authoritarian about that.
    We tried armies without hierarchy or command and control, but they didn't work, so we went back to command and control. And command and control is an authoritarian structure.

    I think you object to the word 'authoritarian', not because it is accurate, but because it it pejorative. This is thinking with your feelings rather than your head.

  2. #12
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We tried armies without hierarchy or command and control, but they didn't work, so we went back to command and control. And command and control is an authoritarian structure.

    I think you object to the word 'authoritarian', not because it is accurate, but because it it pejorative. This is thinking with your feelings rather than your head.
    In your initial response you seemed to imply "authoritarian" was a pejorative. I simply responded.

    But yes, an army without heirarchy, command or control wouldn't work you are right about that.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    In your initial response you seemed to imply "authoritarian" was a pejorative. I simply responded. But yes, an army without heirarchy, command or control wouldn't work you are right about that.
    Yes you are right 'authoritarian' is pejorative and interestingly whether a word is poitive or pejorative it has no bearing on its meaning only its tone.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    A lot of MMA guys are abusive selfish assholes and the fact that their martial art of choice lacks philosophy only makes it so that studying it is giving bullies the methods to bully people more. If you follow a traditional martial art, the first thing you are taught is that if you're in a bad situation and you can run away, you should. Fighting should only ever be used defensively. That's a pretty important thing to impart in students if you are teaching them a dozen ways to choke someone to death and giving them enough info on human anatomy to know where to struck to hit internal organs, among other things.


    You must've had negative experiences with MMA. Running away from potential fights isn't exclusive to TMAs. Humility in fight gyms run high, because it's necessary; lest ye be tested. Matter of fact, ego's are some of the first things that get smashed.
    Likes magpie liked this post

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madboot View Post
    I've read translated works of both western and eastern martial artists. Codes of behavior seemed to appear in both. In western martial arts chivalry and Christianity was praised. In the eastern martial arts it was variations of Buddhism. My theory is because the people who practiced the arts martial, for actual combat purposes, needed to believe there was a higher reason for what they did. These days people practice for exercise and maybe discipline. Most of us don't usually get into situations that require an intimate knowledge of bone breaking techniques. The people who truly mastered those styles usually used them in earnest. One of my books is a translated version of Sigmund ain Ringeck's book on German longsword techniques. There is no ornamental movements about it. It is how to kill as efficiently as possible. It is actually quite chilling to think of someone who actually knew this style on the battlefield.
    That is part of what I like so much about those books, I have a few like it but I tend to find those western books are more expensive than they should be.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Madboot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    That is part of what I like so much about those books, I have a few like it but I tend to find those western books are more expensive than they should be.
    I think part of the expense is because these are mostly "lost" arts. There was a large gap of time where these styles were not practiced, whereas the eastern martial arts where still widely practiced. Instructors in eastern styles must compete with one another. Instructors and material on western styles are damn few and far between. I've been interested, for years, in learning the style of the german longsword as practiced by Leichtenauer and Ringeck. But, alas, there are no instructors in this art in Pennsylvania. And trying to practice alone only imbeds your mistakes.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madboot View Post
    I think part of the expense is because these are mostly "lost" arts. There was a large gap of time where these styles were not practiced, whereas the eastern martial arts where still widely practiced. Instructors in eastern styles must compete with one another. Instructors and material on western styles are damn few and far between. I've been interested, for years, in learning the style of the german longsword as practiced by Leichtenauer and Ringeck. But, alas, there are no instructors in this art in Pennsylvania. And trying to practice alone only imbeds your mistakes.
    I agree with this, although I have spoken to HEMA practitioners who have repeated an idea that the reason traditionalism in martial arts endured in the east was to do with a chauvinistic belief in early onset perfection in Asia of life, economy, society, martial prowess, everything pretty much, that the reason the practice of historical martial arts in the west did not carry over the same fashion was because of adaptation, martial artistry in the west turned into soldiering, which in turn evolved into infantry and mechanised infantry, accompanied by specialism and professionalism, other arts developed into sports or were forgotten entirely, and effectively excluded the mass of society who werent soldiers or athletes.

    I'm not sure I agree entirely with that perspective about adaptation, I know the whole story of the last samauri is about the authorities decision to abandon traditionalism and eclipse it in favour of importing western munitions, styles of dress etc.

    There's different sorts of chauvinism involved in those perspectives but I think that the way in which the Japanese developed, preserved and in some ways, arguably but there was the whole fascist phases so it is arguably, tamed traditionalism IS interesting, I think that the west has failed to do so quite so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Floki View Post
    I may have read a book by that guy, unless this is a more frequent occurence than I would have guessed.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I may have read a book by that guy, unless this is a more frequent occurence than I would have guessed.
    I'd bet it's not rare for ex-military to enter into monastic life. It's recorded that in 495 AD, Henan's Shaolin temple inducted a couple of disciples who had combat expertise. The disciples were probably former military personnel or mercenaries. So, similar occurrences probably date back to the foundation of Shaolin.

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