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Allah and the Universe

Doctor Cringelord

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Maybe he is, for now. Maybe he'll stay that way.

I remember being once as adamant as him. I would have been presented with every proof, and I'd cunningly and courteously come up with a razor sharp counter-argument just to antagonize the idea of the existence of a God, because deep inside it took me out of my comfort zone somehow, and at the same time, I had a part of me in denial that always knew there is a God.

He might be trolling, or truly inquiring, but I'm looking at him with eyes of understanding. Many times we have stumbled upon greatness in serendipitous moments.

Matters of Faith are not matters of logic alone, they're mostly a matter of the heart and intuition.

I think if there is a god, it lives in every atom, every particle.
 

Typh0n

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Maybe he is, for now. Maybe he'll stay that way.

I remember being once as adamant as him. I would have been presented with every proof, and I'd cunningly and courteously come up with a razor sharp counter-argument just to antagonize the idea of the existence of a God, because deep inside it took me out of my comfort zone somehow, and at the same time, I had a part of me in denial that always knew there is a God.

He might be trolling, or truly inquiring, but I'm looking at him with eyes of understanding. Many times we have stumbled upon greatness in serendipitous moments.

Matters of Faith are not matters of logic alone, they're mostly a matter of the heart and intuition.

Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.
 

Typh0n

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Most believe the universe has a supernatural creator.

Where are you getting this from?

For the record, I always thought many people were agnostics, though I don't have any statistics by country or anything like that.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I think it's foolish and defeatist to assume there's some point where we should just give up on seeking knowledge and answers and just give in to our faith. We may never find all of the answers and knowledge but it seems lazy and possibly a symptom of hubris to just give up and say 'faith is all I need'

It also smacks of old geocentrist modes of thinking, like we should just roll over and accept humans are somehow more significant and special than anything occupying any other corner of this universe.
 
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Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.

How do you reason with precision and reliability the unknowable?

Once you relieve yourself of confidence of knowing all things, you are at peace with unknowing.
 

Typh0n

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How do you reason with precision and reliability the unknowable?

The uknowable, or the uknown?

In the case of the unkown, you have to experience it through sense perception first. Just because something is unknown doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Before Columbus landed on the shores of central America, he didn't know of its existence. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it hadn't been perceived by him.

But what do you call the unknowable? If something is unknowable, that means it cannot be perceived by humans, and thus it has no existence. Even if we argued that something could exist without us being able to perceive it, since all consciousness is consciousness of something, it is not something that can enter into the human sphere of consciousness, therefore it cannot exist.

I respond before you edit btw, which is why I did not quote your whole post.

Once you relieve yourself of confidence of knowing all things, you are at peace with unknowing.

I do not claim I know everything, just that if something is unknown or unexplained to me, that doesn't make it unknowable or inexplicable.

I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.
 

ceecee

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Where are you getting this from?

For the record, I always thought many people were agnostics, though I don't have any statistics by country or anything like that.

In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.

Living in the bible belt you see the prejudice against atheists firsthand. Even muslims and jews are more trusted than atheists here. The general attitude is "at least they believe in sumthin'"

The outright distrust and hatred atheists experience is one of the great overlooked sins in the USA, and we're still somehow begged to look at Christians as a persecuted class just because some dumb county clerk cunt doesn't want to do her government job or because school prayer isn't mandatory. Oh the oppression. Chill, snowflakes, you're not being forced to worship in the sewers and being fed to lions in the arena.
 
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The uknowable, or the uknown?

In the case of the unkown, you have to experience it through sense perception first.

Sense perception only? Why only sense perception?

Just because something is unknown doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Before Columbus landed on the shores of central America, he didn't know of its existence. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it hadn't been perceived by him.

Right, and he had "faith" that it was there.

But what do call the unknowable? If something is unknowable, that means it cannot be perceived by humans, and thus it has no existence.

Not according to your previous two sentences. ^^^

Even if we argued that something could exist without us being able to perceive it, since all consciousness is consciousness of something, it is not something that can enter into the human sphere of consciousness, therefore it cannot exist.

Starting to sound geocentric here: "Something cannot exist unless We Humans can perceive its existence."

I respond before you edit btw, which is why I did not quote your whole post.

No biggie. It's a relevant video to this discussion and goes further in-depth than I ever could.
 

Typh0n

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In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.

Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.

I imagine what those stats miss would also be culturally religious people who aren't believers, i.e. people who go to church because their spouse goes to church, et al.

So the numbers might be higher.
 

Typh0n

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Sense perception only? Why only sense perception?

What else is there?

Right, and he had "faith" that it was there.

He had knowledge of the existence of India, which is where he thought he was.

Not according to your previous two sentences. ^^^

Why not? I distinghuish between unknowable and simply just unknown.

Starting to sound geocentric here: "Something cannot exist unless We Humans can perceive its existence."

You're right it is.

What I meant was that if we cannot perceive it, we cannot further explain it, which doesn't matter because we don't perceive it, so how does it affect us?
 

ceecee

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Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.

Like you, I also think it's higher - this percentage is only what is being reported. I live in a red, religious area and there are non-religious but there are also people that attend services because of societal pressure and appearance - I think this is a high number overall too.

I would venture to say it's closer to half, at least in the 40% range. I don't think that's overstating it - I think that's a more accurate number and that would include the atheist and agnostics who are aren't reporting due to persecution.
 

ceecee

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I imagine what those stats miss would also be culturally religious people who aren't believers, i.e. people who go to church because their spouse goes to church, et al.

So the numbers might be higher.

Exactly. And that's not an outlier, I think your example is common.
 
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What else is there?

Intuition, feeling, thinking, judging, etc. You would be handicapping your search for knowledge if you used only one tool. Use all of the God-given tools of reason! :wink:

He had knowledge of the existence of India, which is where he thought he was.

You got me. I'll say it for you: "Checkmate, Christian." :)

Why not? I distinghuish between unknowable and simply just unknown.

I sense there is a prejudice against the unknowable in favor of the simply unknown. This is addressed in the Cult of Confidence video on the previous page.

What I meant was that if we cannot perceive it, we cannot further explain it, which doesn't matter because we don't perceive it, so how does it affect us?

The numinous has sort of a residual effect on our psyche, the best way I could explain it.

One way is best described in Psalm 23 - This brief excerpt:
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The Orthodox (original) interpretation:
“It is necessary for you to be buried in death with Him by baptism. But it is not really death, but a shadow and image of death” (St. Gregory of Nyssa). “For we are baptized into the death of Christ, baptism is called the shadow and image of death, in face of which there is no longer anything to fear” (St. Cyril of Alexandria). The last part of this verse refers to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. “He comforts the believer, or guides him, with the rod and staff (the Shepherd’s crook) of the Spirit, for the One who guides or comforts is the Spirit (the Paraclete – the Greek verb here is “parekalesan”) (St. Gregory of Nyssa). “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever...when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth...” (John 14:16; 16:13 – the verb translated “He has led...” in v. 3 of the Psalm, and “will guide” in John is “hodigise” and “hodigisei” in Greek).

No doubt a proper theist will doubt if indeed there is a God to comfort us, nonetheless, it confers a great psychological advantage to have faith that there is someone rooting for you.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware explained better in The Orthodox Way.
And so it proves to be for each one who follows the spiritual Way. We go out from the known into the unknown, we advance from light into darkness. We do not simply proceed from the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge, but we go forward from the light of partial knowledge into a greater knowledge which is so much more profound that it can only be described as the 'darkness of unknowing'. Like Socrates we begin to realize how little we understand.

Any theist claiming "Knowledge" is a liar. Remembering the koan: If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
 
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I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.

*agnostic atheist, agnostic theist?

Do you prefer the certainty/confidence of (current) scientific knowledge over the uncertainty of faith in the unknowable?

Are you comfortable with knowing that you know nothing?
 

Sacrophagus

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Living in the bible belt you see the prejudice against atheists firsthand. Even muslims and jews are more trusted than atheists here. The general attitude is "at least they believe in sumthin'"

The outright distrust and hatred atheists experience is one of the great overlooked sins in the USA, and we're still somehow begged to look at Christians as a persecuted class just because some dumb county clerk cunt doesn't want to do her government job or because school prayer isn't mandatory. Oh the oppression. Chill, snowflakes, you're not being forced to worship in the sewers and being fed to lions in the arena.

Pity those who think they're superior than others because of their beliefs.

Believers who follow their faith and commandments, actually know that they should not forcefeed propaganda and demean others because they are non-believers or atheists. Those who use religion to spread hate or attain a certain selfish outcome, ego sublimation, don't do that in the name of their creator, but because they have their own personal agenda.

Live and let live.




Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.

There are those who need Faith alone, and those who need Faith and knowledge, and others, need knowledge to reach Faith. I've been reading Qu'ran lately, and it is cited that Allah's greatest believers are those who use their acumen to come his greatness.
In fact the verse to be first revealed was "Iqraa!", meaning "Read!", which puts en emphasis on the importance of knowledge:

“Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not”
[al-‘Alaq 96:1-5]

In Islamic history, scholars and scientists always occupy a high status, and Qu'ran attests of this noble position as muslims knew this and were infused by that thirst of knowledge and thus made many important jumps in Algebra, Geodesy, Surgery, Art, Geometry, Physics, Astronomy, Architecture, Biology...etc:
“Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge”
[al-Mujaadilah 58:11]

Quranic injunctions did have an influence on their drive.
I believe reason and the pursuit of knowledge can take you closer to the experience of Faith, and as a matter of fact, only now, after many years, scientific research is reaching conclusions that were cited in Qu'ran ages ago. Imagine a messenger who has no knowledge in embryology whatsoever, basically illeterate, never learned how to read or write, during common era, was bestowed a revelation among many revelations that suggests:

 

Doctor Cringelord

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*agnostic atheist, agnostic theist?

Do you prefer the certainty/confidence of (current) scientific knowledge over the uncertainty of faith in the unknowable?

Are you comfortable with knowing that you know nothing?

I don't think all people who agree with the scientific method necessarily accept all science as the gospel. Now, there are certainly people who do this, accepting it like Dogma without an ounce of skepticism.

The more we know, the less we know. Science doesn't have all the answers, the important thing however is not giving up or accepting the lack of evidence and scientific data as proof in itself.
 
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I don't think all people who agree with the scientific method necessarily accept all science as the gospel. Now, there are certainly people who do this, accepting it like Dogma without an ounce of skepticism.

The more we know, the less we know. Science doesn't have all the answers, the important thing however is not giving up or accepting the lack of evidence and scientific data as proof in itself.

There's no argument that on the extremes of either end of atheism/theism spectrum, there are those who elevate and otherwise disregard knowledge (in its various forms) if it doesn't fit their worldview (which we are all guilty of to a degree).

The reason we are all guilty of elevating some knowledge over others may have to do with tribal survivability. It's easier to survive in a pack than individually, etc.

So, we each plant our flags on our preferred ideology and proclaim that:


Last note: "There is nothing brave about demanding certainty as a precondition for addressing a question. A brave thinker examines questions as they become necessary and accepts the uncertainty implicit in the inquiry. A humble thinker realizes he is not the first to explore hard questions and looks to the luminaries of the past."
 
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