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  1. #41
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Pity those who think they're superior than others because of their beliefs. Believers who follow their faith and commandments, actually know that they should not forcefeed propaganda and demean others because they are non-believers or atheists. Those who use religion to spread hate or attain a certain selfish outcome, ego sublimation, don't do that in the name of their creator, but because they have their own personal agenda. Live and let live. There are those who need Faith alone, and those who need Faith and knowledge, and others, need knowledge to reach Faith. I've been reading Qu'ran lately, and it is cited that Allah's greatest believers are those who use their acumen to come his greatness. In fact the verse to be first revealed was "Iqraa!", meaning "Read!", which puts en emphasis on the importance of knowledge: "Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not" [al-'Alaq 96:1-5] In Islamic history, scholars and scientists always occupy a high status, and Qu'ran attests of this noble position as muslims knew this and were infused by that thirst of knowledge and thus made many important jumps in Algebra, Geodesy, Surgery, Art, Geometry, Physics, Astronomy, Architecture, Biology...etc: "Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge" [al-Mujaadilah 58:11] Quranic injunctions did have an influence on their drive. I believe reason and the pursuit of knowledge can take you closer to the experience of Faith, and as a matter of fact, only now, after many years, scientific research is reaching conclusions that were cited in Qu'ran ages ago. Imagine a messenger who has no knowledge in embryology whatsoever, basically illeterate, never learned how to read or write, during common era, was bestowed a revelation among many revelations that suggests:
    Ask the simple question, how many Muslim's hold a Noble Prize in Science?

  2. #42
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    Mole, I'm taking the unusual step, for me these days, of putting you on ignore, I dont want to receive the reps from you that you're sending me at the moment.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Ask the simple question, how many Muslim's hold a Noble Prize in Science?
    Honor is the only prize for nobility.
    χρήστος ανέστη


  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post
    Honor is the only prize for nobility.
    Islamic societies based on personal and family honour lead to honour killings.

  5. #45
    ὁ Σκοτεινός Wunjo's Avatar
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    My god, this thread is filled with serious amounts of sesquipedalian loqaciousness and the more loqaciousness the thread is filled with, the less and less sense words start to make.

    Pick up your shovels, folks. We have some burying to do.
    "The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk."

  6. #46
    Junior Member nor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.
    Does a person who has neither heard nor thought of the concept of a god (thereby making them an atheist, by default) claim knowledge about the existence of said?

    To *all* the agnostics: Is god knowable?

    And for extra credit: How do you know?

  7. #47
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    EDIT: Here are some thoughts....
    1) If Humans had not existed, nature would have thrived. What other purpose would there have been for humans other than to have been God's vicegerent if everything they touch and settle on dies, even during the prehistoric era (yes, even then, as prehistoric humans would migrate from place to place after wiping out all the resources and decimating it), and given the current level of sophistication man has gone to which has given him the ability to wipe out all life? clearly, this is different than what even lions are like, who live as part of an ecosystem in harmony.
    2) everything has an originator, but if we were to deny the existence of God, there would be an endless loop of originators, and this would be a logical fallacy. sure, big bang, sure, no time before big bang, but what created the singularity? what caused the big bang?
    3) (words of M. Fethullah Gulen): everything is contingent. anything can exist at any time, and at anywhere, in any form, and with any character, nothing or no one has a role in determining the way, time and place of its coming into existence, and nonexistence, giving it unique characterisitics. this power must be infinite, have absolute will, and all comprehensive knowledge.....necessarily, it is God.
    4) everything which is evil can be said to be form of destruction and non existence, and everything good and beautiful can be said to be a form of existence and creation. for instance, curing a sick person, thus restoring them to life. existence. creating children within the bounds of marriage so that they may grow up with parents to provide for them and love them, all within the bounds of modesty to ensure the protection by parents. existence. familia and friendshiip bonds which ensure aid in time of need. existence and creation. hard work, thus ensuring the growth of a business, creation.
    HOWEVER, destroying a building through arson, destruction and non existence. using the same desires you used to start a family to have an illicit sexual affair, such as adultery, rape (yes, rape, rape originates in lust, and later evolves into a form of dominance, however much the feminazis deny it), or fornication which result in children born out of wedlock and or break up of families, destruction. murder, non existence and destruction, evolving from the same instinct used to protect ones family, or nation in war. thus, islam (and all religions'....perhaps)'s commandments are meant to ensure the preservation of existence and the prevention of non existence. this points to a creator.
    5)life is a riddle (Gulen's words): scientists cannot explain it with material causes ot discover its origin and transparent it displays a creative power. given this, life declares, "God created me"
    6)everything that exists and the universe as a whole, displa a magnificient harmony and order in themselves, and in their interrelationships (Gulen's words): The existence of one part necessitates the existence of the whole, and the whole requres the existence of all parts for its own existence. for example, a deformed cell may destroy an entire body. similarly, a pomegranate, requires the collaborative and cooperative existence of air water and soil and the sun, as well as heir mutual and well balanced cooperation for its existence. this harmony and cooperation point to a creation of order, who knows the realtionships and characteristics of everything, and who can order everything. the creator of order is God.
    7)whatever has been created has purpose (Gulen)
    8) all living and non living beings can not meet almost any of their own needs on their own. for example, the universe can operate and maintain itself only by such universal laws as growth and reproduction, gravitation and repulsion, but these so called "natural laws" have no actual external, visible, or material existence, they are nominal. how can something nominal, completely devoid of knowledge and consciousness, be responsible for such a miraculous creation that requires absolute power and absolute knowledge, wisdom, choice, and preference? (Gulen)

  8. #48
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
    OK WAIT! I'e been meaning to say this for a LONG time now, but enough's enough, I'm going to address all the atheists and new atheists and agnostics, with my evidences of God.
    With MY evidences of god. You. Not me, not any other person on this planet. Get that through your head right now. The rest of your post is only relevant to you. Again, not to me or any other person on this planet. It's not even that I necessarily disagree with all you listed. I disagree with your self-righteous tone and belief that you know better than anyone else. You do not.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  9. #49
    Straighten up, Fly right Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
    OK WAIT! I'e been meaning to say this for a LONG time now, but enough's enough, I'm going to address all the atheists and new atheists and agnostics, with my evidences of God.
    You demean God by subjecting him to human standards of physical evidence. Your belief in him is enough, but cannot be made more than it is.
    Though the ground was burnt and everything turned into ashes, we will revive again. The sky is still blue, the crashing waves from long ago are unchanged. This is Earth, our planet. This dream is in the hearts of people; so long as they do not abandon it, it will not fade away. For the sake of tomorrow, keep a song in your heart. For the sake of our future, let us stop our crying and stand on our ground firmly. ~Maya

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    With MY evidences of god. You. Not me, not any other person on this planet. Get that through your head right now. The rest of your post is only relevant to you. Again, not to me or any other person on this planet. It's not even that I necessarily disagree with all you listed. I disagree with your self-righteous tone and belief that you know better than anyone else. You do not.
    Fair enough. With the many far better qualified scholars of religion, theology, and philosophy's arguments in favor of the existence of God.

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