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  1. #31
    Armchair Explorer Doctor Anaximander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.
    I imagine what those stats miss would also be culturally religious people who aren't believers, i.e. people who go to church because their spouse goes to church, et al.

    So the numbers might be higher.
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  2. #32
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post
    Sense perception only? Why only sense perception?
    What else is there?

    Right, and he had "faith" that it was there.
    He had knowledge of the existence of India, which is where he thought he was.

    Not according to your previous two sentences. ^^^
    Why not? I distinghuish between unknowable and simply just unknown.

    Starting to sound geocentric here: "Something cannot exist unless We Humans can perceive its existence."
    You're right it is.

    What I meant was that if we cannot perceive it, we cannot further explain it, which doesn't matter because we don't perceive it, so how does it affect us?

  3. #33
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.
    Like you, I also think it's higher - this percentage is only what is being reported. I live in a red, religious area and there are non-religious but there are also people that attend services because of societal pressure and appearance - I think this is a high number overall too.

    I would venture to say it's closer to half, at least in the 40% range. I don't think that's overstating it - I think that's a more accurate number and that would include the atheist and agnostics who are aren't reporting due to persecution.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  4. #34
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    I imagine what those stats miss would also be culturally religious people who aren't believers, i.e. people who go to church because their spouse goes to church, et al.

    So the numbers might be higher.
    Exactly. And that's not an outlier, I think your example is common.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    What else is there?
    Intuition, feeling, thinking, judging, etc. You would be handicapping your search for knowledge if you used only one tool. Use all of the God-given tools of reason!

    He had knowledge of the existence of India, which is where he thought he was.
    You got me. I'll say it for you: "Checkmate, Christian."

    Why not? I distinghuish between unknowable and simply just unknown.
    I sense there is a prejudice against the unknowable in favor of the simply unknown. This is addressed in the Cult of Confidence video on the previous page.

    What I meant was that if we cannot perceive it, we cannot further explain it, which doesn't matter because we don't perceive it, so how does it affect us?
    The numinous has sort of a residual effect on our psyche, the best way I could explain it.

    One way is best described in Psalm 23 - This brief excerpt:
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    The Orthodox (original) interpretation:
    “It is necessary for you to be buried in death with Him by baptism. But it is not really death, but a shadow and image of death” (St. Gregory of Nyssa). “For we are baptized into the death of Christ, baptism is called the shadow and image of death, in face of which there is no longer anything to fear” (St. Cyril of Alexandria). The last part of this verse refers to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. “He comforts the believer, or guides him, with the rod and staff (the Shepherd’s crook) of the Spirit, for the One who guides or comforts is the Spirit (the Paraclete – the Greek verb here is “parekalesan”) (St. Gregory of Nyssa). “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever...when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth...” (John 14:16; 16:13 – the verb translated “He has led...” in v. 3 of the Psalm, and “will guide” in John is “hodigise” and “hodigisei” in Greek).

    No doubt a proper theist will doubt if indeed there is a God to comfort us, nonetheless, it confers a great psychological advantage to have faith that there is someone rooting for you.

    Metropolitan Kallistos Ware explained better in The Orthodox Way.
    And so it proves to be for each one who follows the spiritual Way. We go out from the known into the unknown, we advance from light into darkness. We do not simply proceed from the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge, but we go forward from the light of partial knowledge into a greater knowledge which is so much more profound that it can only be described as the 'darkness of unknowing'. Like Socrates we begin to realize how little we understand.
    Any theist claiming "Knowledge" is a liar. Remembering the koan: If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.
    *agnostic atheist, agnostic theist?

    Do you prefer the certainty/confidence of (current) scientific knowledge over the uncertainty of faith in the unknowable?

    Are you comfortable with knowing that you know nothing?
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  7. #37
    Mastermind Fieldmarshal Sacrophagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Living in the bible belt you see the prejudice against atheists firsthand. Even muslims and jews are more trusted than atheists here. The general attitude is "at least they believe in sumthin'"

    The outright distrust and hatred atheists experience is one of the great overlooked sins in the USA, and we're still somehow begged to look at Christians as a persecuted class just because some dumb county clerk cunt doesn't want to do her government job or because school prayer isn't mandatory. Oh the oppression. Chill, snowflakes, you're not being forced to worship in the sewers and being fed to lions in the arena.
    Pity those who think they're superior than others because of their beliefs.

    Believers who follow their faith and commandments, actually know that they should not forcefeed propaganda and demean others because they are non-believers or atheists. Those who use religion to spread hate or attain a certain selfish outcome, ego sublimation, don't do that in the name of their creator, but because they have their own personal agenda.

    Live and let live.




    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

    Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.
    There are those who need Faith alone, and those who need Faith and knowledge, and others, need knowledge to reach Faith. I've been reading Qu'ran lately, and it is cited that Allah's greatest believers are those who use their acumen to come his greatness.
    In fact the verse to be first revealed was "Iqraa!", meaning "Read!", which puts en emphasis on the importance of knowledge:

    “Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not”
    [al-‘Alaq 96:1-5]

    In Islamic history, scholars and scientists always occupy a high status, and Qu'ran attests of this noble position as muslims knew this and were infused by that thirst of knowledge and thus made many important jumps in Algebra, Geodesy, Surgery, Art, Geometry, Physics, Astronomy, Architecture, Biology...etc:
    “Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge”
    [al-Mujaadilah 58:11]

    Quranic injunctions did have an influence on their drive.
    I believe reason and the pursuit of knowledge can take you closer to the experience of Faith, and as a matter of fact, only now, after many years, scientific research is reaching conclusions that were cited in Qu'ran ages ago. Imagine a messenger who has no knowledge in embryology whatsoever, basically illeterate, never learned how to read or write, during common era, was bestowed a revelation among many revelations that suggests:

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  8. #38
    Armchair Explorer Doctor Anaximander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post
    *agnostic atheist, agnostic theist?

    Do you prefer the certainty/confidence of (current) scientific knowledge over the uncertainty of faith in the unknowable?

    Are you comfortable with knowing that you know nothing?
    I don't think all people who agree with the scientific method necessarily accept all science as the gospel. Now, there are certainly people who do this, accepting it like Dogma without an ounce of skepticism.

    The more we know, the less we know. Science doesn't have all the answers, the important thing however is not giving up or accepting the lack of evidence and scientific data as proof in itself.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    I don't think all people who agree with the scientific method necessarily accept all science as the gospel. Now, there are certainly people who do this, accepting it like Dogma without an ounce of skepticism.

    The more we know, the less we know. Science doesn't have all the answers, the important thing however is not giving up or accepting the lack of evidence and scientific data as proof in itself.
    There's no argument that on the extremes of either end of atheism/theism spectrum, there are those who elevate and otherwise disregard knowledge (in its various forms) if it doesn't fit their worldview (which we are all guilty of to a degree).

    The reason we are all guilty of elevating some knowledge over others may have to do with tribal survivability. It's easier to survive in a pack than individually, etc.

    So, we each plant our flags on our preferred ideology and proclaim that:



    Last note: "There is nothing brave about demanding certainty as a precondition for addressing a question. A brave thinker examines questions as they become necessary and accepts the uncertainty implicit in the inquiry. A humble thinker realizes he is not the first to explore hard questions and looks to the luminaries of the past."
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Is Mole a gold star atheist?
    I can't prove God doesn't exist.

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