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Allah and the Universe

Mole

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Pity those who think they're superior than others because of their beliefs. Believers who follow their faith and commandments, actually know that they should not forcefeed propaganda and demean others because they are non-believers or atheists. Those who use religion to spread hate or attain a certain selfish outcome, ego sublimation, don't do that in the name of their creator, but because they have their own personal agenda. Live and let live. There are those who need Faith alone, and those who need Faith and knowledge, and others, need knowledge to reach Faith. I've been reading Qu'ran lately, and it is cited that Allah's greatest believers are those who use their acumen to come his greatness. In fact the verse to be first revealed was "Iqraa!", meaning "Read!", which puts en emphasis on the importance of knowledge: "Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not" [al-'Alaq 96:1-5] In Islamic history, scholars and scientists always occupy a high status, and Qu'ran attests of this noble position as muslims knew this and were infused by that thirst of knowledge and thus made many important jumps in Algebra, Geodesy, Surgery, Art, Geometry, Physics, Astronomy, Architecture, Biology...etc: "Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge" [al-Mujaadilah 58:11] Quranic injunctions did have an influence on their drive. I believe reason and the pursuit of knowledge can take you closer to the experience of Faith, and as a matter of fact, only now, after many years, scientific research is reaching conclusions that were cited in Qu'ran ages ago. Imagine a messenger who has no knowledge in embryology whatsoever, basically illeterate, never learned how to read or write, during common era, was bestowed a revelation among many revelations that suggests:
Ask the simple question, how many Muslim's hold a Noble Prize in Science?
 

Lark

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Mole, I'm taking the unusual step, for me these days, of putting you on ignore, I dont want to receive the reps from you that you're sending me at the moment.
 

Wunjo

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My god, this thread is filled with serious amounts of sesquipedalian loqaciousness and the more loqaciousness the thread is filled with, the less and less sense words start to make.

Pick up your shovels, folks. We have some burying to do.
 

nor

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I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.

Does a person who has neither heard nor thought of the concept of a god (thereby making them an atheist, by default) claim knowledge about the existence of said?

To *all* the agnostics: Is god knowable?

And for extra credit: How do you know?
 

Warrior

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EDIT: Here are some thoughts....
1) If Humans had not existed, nature would have thrived. What other purpose would there have been for humans other than to have been God's vicegerent if everything they touch and settle on dies, even during the prehistoric era (yes, even then, as prehistoric humans would migrate from place to place after wiping out all the resources and decimating it), and given the current level of sophistication man has gone to which has given him the ability to wipe out all life? clearly, this is different than what even lions are like, who live as part of an ecosystem in harmony.
2) everything has an originator, but if we were to deny the existence of God, there would be an endless loop of originators, and this would be a logical fallacy. sure, big bang, sure, no time before big bang, but what created the singularity? what caused the big bang?
3) (words of M. Fethullah Gulen): everything is contingent. anything can exist at any time, and at anywhere, in any form, and with any character, nothing or no one has a role in determining the way, time and place of its coming into existence, and nonexistence, giving it unique characterisitics. this power must be infinite, have absolute will, and all comprehensive knowledge.....necessarily, it is God.
4) everything which is evil can be said to be form of destruction and non existence, and everything good and beautiful can be said to be a form of existence and creation. for instance, curing a sick person, thus restoring them to life. existence. creating children within the bounds of marriage so that they may grow up with parents to provide for them and love them, all within the bounds of modesty to ensure the protection by parents. existence. familia and friendshiip bonds which ensure aid in time of need. existence and creation. hard work, thus ensuring the growth of a business, creation.
HOWEVER, destroying a building through arson, destruction and non existence. using the same desires you used to start a family to have an illicit sexual affair, such as adultery, rape (yes, rape, rape originates in lust, and later evolves into a form of dominance, however much the feminazis deny it), or fornication which result in children born out of wedlock and or break up of families, destruction. murder, non existence and destruction, evolving from the same instinct used to protect ones family, or nation in war. thus, islam (and all religions'....perhaps)'s commandments are meant to ensure the preservation of existence and the prevention of non existence. this points to a creator.
5)life is a riddle (Gulen's words): scientists cannot explain it with material causes ot discover its origin and transparent it displays a creative power. given this, life declares, "God created me"
6)everything that exists and the universe as a whole, displa a magnificient harmony and order in themselves, and in their interrelationships (Gulen's words): The existence of one part necessitates the existence of the whole, and the whole requres the existence of all parts for its own existence. for example, a deformed cell may destroy an entire body. similarly, a pomegranate, requires the collaborative and cooperative existence of air water and soil and the sun, as well as heir mutual and well balanced cooperation for its existence. this harmony and cooperation point to a creation of order, who knows the realtionships and characteristics of everything, and who can order everything. the creator of order is God.
7)whatever has been created has purpose (Gulen)
8) all living and non living beings can not meet almost any of their own needs on their own. for example, the universe can operate and maintain itself only by such universal laws as growth and reproduction, gravitation and repulsion, but these so called "natural laws" have no actual external, visible, or material existence, they are nominal. how can something nominal, completely devoid of knowledge and consciousness, be responsible for such a miraculous creation that requires absolute power and absolute knowledge, wisdom, choice, and preference? (Gulen)
 

ceecee

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OK WAIT! I'e been meaning to say this for a LONG time now, but enough's enough, I'm going to address all the atheists and new atheists and agnostics, with my evidences of God.

With MY evidences of god. You. Not me, not any other person on this planet. Get that through your head right now. The rest of your post is only relevant to you. Again, not to me or any other person on this planet. It's not even that I necessarily disagree with all you listed. I disagree with your self-righteous tone and belief that you know better than anyone else. You do not.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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OK WAIT! I'e been meaning to say this for a LONG time now, but enough's enough, I'm going to address all the atheists and new atheists and agnostics, with my evidences of God.
You demean God by subjecting him to human standards of physical evidence. Your belief in him is enough, but cannot be made more than it is.
 

Warrior

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With MY evidences of god. You. Not me, not any other person on this planet. Get that through your head right now. The rest of your post is only relevant to you. Again, not to me or any other person on this planet. It's not even that I necessarily disagree with all you listed. I disagree with your self-righteous tone and belief that you know better than anyone else. You do not.
Fair enough. With the many far better qualified scholars of religion, theology, and philosophy's arguments in favor of the existence of God.
 

Warrior

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With MY evidences of god. You. Not me, not any other person on this planet. Get that through your head right now. The rest of your post is only relevant to you. Again, not to me or any other person on this planet. It's not even that I necessarily disagree with all you listed. I disagree with your self-righteous tone and belief that you know better than anyone else. You do not.
also, this isn't my tone of voice, im jotting down and copying word for word words from fethullah gulen's book. he's a scholar of religion. i mentioned that in my post, no?
 

Warrior

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Ask the simple question, how many Muslim's hold a Noble Prize in Science?
instead, ask yourself this.....how many medieval european scientists are there, back when europe was ruled by the church? now ask yourself this.....how many prized muslim scientists where there, in the medieval era, the era of the caliphate? The nobel prize was only invented in 1895. islam started in 610 ce. the last caliphate, the ottoman caliphate came under occupation after world war in 1918, and officially ended after the takeover of ataturk in 1924.
 

Sacrophagus

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OK WAIT! I'e been meaning to say this for a LONG time now, but enough's enough, I'm going to address all the atheists and new atheists and agnostics, with my evidences of God.

The teachings of faith bestow knowledge upon the followers of God, and one of them is to never lose patience, nor show distraught towards who don't believe. Ain't God an infinite source of mercy? If he's The all-Merciful, The Mercy-Giving, one should not hasten a non-believer even after the longest while.

"You (O Muhammad SAW) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided." {Al-Qasas,28:56}

Your statements should not come from a place of lack of compassion, but from that place inside of you of abundant understanding. See things through their eyes, don't judge anyone, and don't take it personally.

One of the many examples of patience and compassion we have:

But this wasn't the end of it, the three brothers then commanded their slaves and the youth to ridicule the Prophet (S.A.W) and make fun of him. Also, to physically harm him by throwing stones at him, by pelting him as he was leaving the city. So, the Prophet (S.A.W) was forced to leave the city while the people are ridiculing him, insulting him, and throwing stones at him, so much so that the blood began to pour from his body and that his shoes became soaked with his own blood. As he ran outside the city, he himself narrates to Aishaa, 'that I could not remember where I was going'. He was in such a state of shock that he did not know where he was until he reached a garden a few kilometers outside of Taif. The people of Taif had stopped chasing him, and he sat down, tired and bleeding, being tortured and humiliated by the people of Taif, all alone under a tree. There he (S.A.W) made a dua (call) to Allah (S.W.T) and said:

"O Allah! I complain to You of my weakness, my scarcity of resources and the humiliation I have been subjected to by the people. O Most Merciful of those who are merciful. O Lord of the weak and my Lord too. To whom have you entrusted me? To a distant person who receives me with hostility? Or to an enemy to whom you have granted authority over my affair? So long as You are not angry with me, I do not care. Your favor is of a more expansive relief to me. I seek refuge in the light of Your Face by which all darkness is dispelled and every affair of this world and the next is set right, lest Your anger or Your displeasure descends upon me. I desire Your pleasure and satisfaction until You are pleased. There is no power and no might except by You."

At this point, the Prophet (S.A.W) said 'I saw a cloud hovering above me, and lo and behold, I saw Jibreel (Angel Gabriel) came down from that cloud, and besides him was an angel that I had never seen before.' And Jibreel said to the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W), 'O Muhammad (S.A.W), your Lord has seen how your people have responded to you, your Lord has seen what they have said to you, so he has sent me with the angel of the mountains to place at your disposal.'

The angel said, 'O Muhammad (S.A.W), if you want, command me and I will cause the two mountains of Taif to collapse upon them.' (For those of you who don't know, Taif is situated on some type of plateau, and the city is in between these two mountains, and the angel asked the Prophet (S.A.W) if he should just squash the people between the same mountains whose pebbles they used to stone the Prophet (S.A.W) with.)

The Prophet (S.A.W), still bleeding and his shoes still wet with blood says, 'No! Rather, I pray that Allah (S.W.T) blesses their children to be Muslims and worship Allah (S.W.T) alone. Even if they have rejected Islam, I pray that Allah (S.W.T) blesses their progeny to be Muslim.'
 

Warrior

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You demean God by subjecting him to human standards of physical evidence. Your belief in him is enough, but cannot be made more than it is.
hold up.....atheists can demean God all they want by calling him a "sycophantic narcissistic bully" (Richard dawkins), a "cold blooded murderer", a "genocidal maniac" and generally non existent, and also use homophobia, sexism, "racism" "anti semitism" to demean him, but IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM demeaning him by (trying to) proving his existence (mostly using an actual scholar's words)?
 

Warrior

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The teachings of faith bestow knowledge upon the followers of God, and one of them is to never lose patience, nor show distraught towards who don't believe. Ain't God an infinite source of mercy? If he's The all-Merciful, The Mercy-Giving, one should not hasten a non-believer even after the longest while.

"You (O Muhammad SAW) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided." {Al-Qasas,28:56}

Your statements should not come from a place of lack of compassion, but from that place inside of you of abundant understanding. See things through their eyes, don't judge anyone, and don't take it personally.

One of the many examples of patience and compassion we have:
say, thank you........those are wise words, ill follow them......say are you a man or a woman, i dont know whether to refer to you as 'brother' or 'sister'
 

Coriolis

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hold up.....atheists can demean God all they want by calling him a "sycophantic narcissistic bully" (Richard dawkins), a "cold blooded murderer", a "genocidal maniac" and generally non existent, and also use homophobia, sexism, "racism" "anti semitism" to demean him, but IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM demeaning him by (trying to) proving his existence (mostly using an actual scholar's words)?
You can no more prove his existence than atheists can prove his nonexistence. Either viewpoint is a matter of faith. The only logically defensible position is agnosticism, but I have yet to meet a believer of any faith who finds logic sufficient in spiritual matters.
 

Mole

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Does a person who has neither heard nor thought of the concept of a god (thereby making them an atheist, by default) claim knowledge about the existence of said? To *all* the agnostics: Is god knowable? And for extra credit: How do you know?
When they are mowing us down in our streets, it is time to remember Winston Churchill, and "We will never. surrender".
 

Mole

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hold up.....atheists can demean God all they want by calling him a "sycophantic narcissistic bully" (Richard dawkins), a "cold blooded murderer", a "genocidal maniac" and generally non existent, and also use homophobia, sexism, "racism" "anti semitism" to demean him, but IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM demeaning him by (trying to) proving his existence (mostly using an actual scholar's words)?

3,000 years ago at the beginning of the West, the Ancient Greeks discovered that supernatural beings were natural forces. This why Islam rejects Ancient Greek culture and the West.
 

Mole

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instead, ask yourself this.....how many medieval european scientists are there, back when europe was ruled by the church? now ask yourself this.....how many prized muslim scientists where there, in the medieval era, the era of the caliphate? The nobel prize was only invented in 1895. islam started in 610 ce. the last caliphate, the ottoman caliphate came under occupation after world war in 1918, and officially ended after the takeover of ataturk in 1924.
The Ottoman Empire known as the Caliphate surrendered to General Harry Chauvel of the Australian Light Horse in Damascus in 1918.
 

Forever

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God doesn't award degrees to religious scholars lol. Man does.

*runs off before domino effect of mind blows appear in 3... 2... 1...*
 
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