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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Maybe he is, for now. Maybe he'll stay that way.

    I remember being once as adamant as him. I would have been presented with every proof, and I'd cunningly and courteously come up with a razor sharp counter-argument just to antagonize the idea of the existence of a God, because deep inside it took me out of my comfort zone somehow, and at the same time, I had a part of me in denial that always knew there is a God.

    He might be trolling, or truly inquiring, but I'm looking at him with eyes of understanding. Many times we have stumbled upon greatness in serendipitous moments.

    Matters of Faith are not matters of logic alone, they're mostly a matter of the heart and intuition.
    I think if there is a god, it lives in every atom, every particle.

  2. #22
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Maybe he is, for now. Maybe he'll stay that way.

    I remember being once as adamant as him. I would have been presented with every proof, and I'd cunningly and courteously come up with a razor sharp counter-argument just to antagonize the idea of the existence of a God, because deep inside it took me out of my comfort zone somehow, and at the same time, I had a part of me in denial that always knew there is a God.

    He might be trolling, or truly inquiring, but I'm looking at him with eyes of understanding. Many times we have stumbled upon greatness in serendipitous moments.

    Matters of Faith are not matters of logic alone, they're mostly a matter of the heart and intuition.
    Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

    Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.

  3. #23
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Most believe the universe has a supernatural creator.
    Where are you getting this from?

    For the record, I always thought many people were agnostics, though I don't have any statistics by country or anything like that.
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  4. #24

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    I think it's foolish and defeatist to assume there's some point where we should just give up on seeking knowledge and answers and just give in to our faith. We may never find all of the answers and knowledge but it seems lazy and possibly a symptom of hubris to just give up and say 'faith is all I need'

    It also smacks of old geocentrist modes of thinking, like we should just roll over and accept humans are somehow more significant and special than anything occupying any other corner of this universe.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Supposing faith is a form of knowledge regarding a creator, how are the heart and intuition means of attaining said knowledge? The heart and intuition are important, sure, but to attain knowledge I've not seen anything other than reason that works with precision and reliability.

    Unless you are going to argue that faith in a creator is not knowledge, in which case I would agree: it is faith.
    How do you reason with precision and reliability the unknowable?

    Once you relieve yourself of confidence of knowing all things, you are at peace with unknowing.
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  6. #26
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post
    How do you reason with precision and reliability the unknowable?
    The uknowable, or the uknown?

    In the case of the unkown, you have to experience it through sense perception first. Just because something is unknown doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Before Columbus landed on the shores of central America, he didn't know of its existence. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it hadn't been perceived by him.

    But what do you call the unknowable? If something is unknowable, that means it cannot be perceived by humans, and thus it has no existence. Even if we argued that something could exist without us being able to perceive it, since all consciousness is consciousness of something, it is not something that can enter into the human sphere of consciousness, therefore it cannot exist.

    I respond before you edit btw, which is why I did not quote your whole post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isk Stark View Post

    Once you relieve yourself of confidence of knowing all things, you are at peace with unknowing.
    I do not claim I know everything, just that if something is unknown or unexplained to me, that doesn't make it unknowable or inexplicable.

    I'm not an atheist, because I don't claim I know about something that escapes my perception, I am agnostic because I don't know.

  7. #27
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Where are you getting this from?

    For the record, I always thought many people were agnostics, though I don't have any statistics by country or anything like that.
    In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.
    Living in the bible belt you see the prejudice against atheists firsthand. Even muslims and jews are more trusted than atheists here. The general attitude is "at least they believe in sumthin'"

    The outright distrust and hatred atheists experience is one of the great overlooked sins in the USA, and we're still somehow begged to look at Christians as a persecuted class just because some dumb county clerk cunt doesn't want to do her government job or because school prayer isn't mandatory. Oh the oppression. Chill, snowflakes, you're not being forced to worship in the sewers and being fed to lions in the arena.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    The uknowable, or the uknown?

    In the case of the unkown, you have to experience it through sense perception first.
    Sense perception only? Why only sense perception?

    Just because something is unknown doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Before Columbus landed on the shores of central America, he didn't know of its existence. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it hadn't been perceived by him.
    Right, and he had "faith" that it was there.

    But what do call the unknowable? If something is unknowable, that means it cannot be perceived by humans, and thus it has no existence.
    Not according to your previous two sentences. ^^^

    Even if we argued that something could exist without us being able to perceive it, since all consciousness is consciousness of something, it is not something that can enter into the human sphere of consciousness, therefore it cannot exist.
    Starting to sound geocentric here: "Something cannot exist unless We Humans can perceive its existence."

    I respond before you edit btw, which is why I did not quote your whole post.
    No biggie. It's a relevant video to this discussion and goes further in-depth than I ever could.
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  10. #30
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    In the US it's around 20-25% that don't identify as religious at all. That includes atheist and agnostics. But the number people identifying as religious is falling. So the number of non-religious will also grow. In the US I have never seen a more persecuted bunch than atheists. This may be the reason for identifying as only non-religious and not actually claiming the label. I'm happy to claim the agnostic label and I do not believe the universe has a supernatural creator.
    Truly, I did not know that, I would have suspected the US to be around 1/3 non-religious.

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