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Thread: Equality

  1. #21
    Member devaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Is equality of opportunity important? No it isn't, being it requires extraordinary cognitive dissonance to even entertain such illusory notions, in the face of a reality that's quite different...
    It is a concept with the force of law and rooted in constitutional tenets in all modern democracies. I'd hardly call that fanciful or illusory.

    Closer to home, take another look at Typoc rules...if you do not respect rules of equality you are liable to be kicked out, ha ha ha.
    “By our stumbling, the world is perfected.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by devaf View Post
    It is a concept with the force of law and rooted in constitutional tenets in all modern democracies. I'd hardly call that fanciful or illusory.

    Closer to home, take another look at Typoc rules...if you do not respect rules of equality you are liable to be kicked out, ha ha ha.
    Illusory constitutional tenets.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson

    ''It's a classic McCarthyite tactic of the left to question the motives and good faith of those who disagree with them.'' Andrew Sullivan

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    Threads like this help me decide who is worth talking to and who is going to remain talking to themselves/the small group of people they rolled up to the site along with.

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    Is equality of opportunity important?
    Yes
    Equality of outcome?
    No
    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
    More complex
    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
    I'm not every type, so I wouldn't know so it wouldn't be wise to compare.
    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
    yes, because everyone deserves an equal opportunity.
    What is the biggest barrier to equality?
    envy.
    No time is ever wasted.

  5. #25
    Fabula rasa Kas's Avatar
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    I may have not popular opinion on this one.

    I can't answer the questions, because I believe that equality is not possible. It is beautiful in theory, but it's mirage. I don't see a circumstances in which it can work. Communistic systems proved how these wonderful ideas crush when meet reality. Because simple as that we do not have equal start and we will not all be winners.

    I think instead of equality we should focus on fairness and respect.
    “The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes." A.C. Doyle


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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Is equality of opportunity important? No it isn't, being it requires extraordinary cognitive dissonance to even entertain such illusory notions, in the face of a reality that's quite different.

    Equality of outcome? Ah, yes...the "Everyone gets a Trophy" mentality, that has led many employers to actively recruit older workers, they'd previously preferred to have shown the door.

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex? That's an oxymoron, I can't even begin to entertain.

    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality? Good question. Pretty sure it does, ISTP's are typically sought out for a variety of problem solving task, others simply don't have the capacity to do...we pick up naturally, it isn't and cannot be taught at work, home, community, etc.

    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not? Equality is an important concept to those who have illusions to peddle, or the mentality of victim-hood get's their duff's in a mode where either they can feel better about, what they have failed to give themselves, or simply don't have the natural skills, abilities, and effort meets opportunity to do.

    What are the biggest barriers to equality? The stupidity of thinking equality is even remotely possible; or failing to consider the opportunity cost of pursuing the illusion. For example the decades old attempt at creating equality in the higher education system; has resulted in leaving American students behind...when it comes to being prepared and actually qualified for Graduate School in Europe.
    And does everyone in the trailer park feel the same?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kas View Post
    I may have not popular opinion on this one.

    I can't answer the questions, because I believe that equality is not possible. It is beautiful in theory, but it's mirage. I don't see a circumstances in which it can work. Communistic systems proved how these wonderful ideas crush when meet reality. Because simple as that we do not have equal start and we will not all be winners.

    I think instead of equality we should focus on fairness and respect.
    Marx and Engels, do you know them?

    They were pretty big with the communists you mention but among the biggest opponents of egalitarianism I know of, they wrote all about it and I'll wager its all still around to be read.

  8. #28
    Fabula rasa Kas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    Marx and Engels, do you know them?

    They were pretty big with the communists you mention but among the biggest opponents of egalitarianism I know of, they wrote all about it and I'll wager its all still around to be read.
    Know them is to much to be said , but obviously I heard about them. They created foundation of communistic systems, but as I was taught the differences of system (best known to me in ZSRR) and their ideas/theories were clear. It's often this way, isn't it?

    It's difficult to me to distinguish between these though because I haven't read the works of them (The Communist Manifesto is on my to read list). But I think that as what you say is correct Marx believed in equality of outcome.
    “The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes." A.C. Doyle


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kas View Post
    Know them is to much to be said , but obviously I heard about them. They created foundation of communistic systems, but as I was taught the differences of system (best known to me in ZSRR) and their ideas/theories were clear. It's often this way, isn't it?

    It's difficult to me to distinguish between these though because I haven't read the works of them (The Communist Manifesto is on my to read list). But I think that as what you say is correct Marx believed in equality of outcome.
    The majority of the communist manifesto, which is a short book and doesnt represent Marx in his entirety at all, is taken up with his criticism of various different schools of socialist thought, he is very critical of all of them and gives them all negative literary reviews, I'm not sure if you would call it equality of outcome and I'm pretty sure he would not either but his idea was "from each according to their ability and to each according to their needs", the abilities and needs arent going to be the same one person to the next.

    There's way more rhapsodizing and praising of capitalism in the communist manifesto than anything else, some of it gets missed because he doesnt talk about capitalism always, sometimes its the capitalist class that he is impressed with but in any case both the system and the class which was its standard bearer he seemed to love because it was constantly modernising, changing, innovating, advancing, developing, improving and with each move it was creating greater and greater abundance.

    Marx and Engels thought that the increasing yields and super abundance would make questions of equality totally superfluous, those questions, along with a lot of other questions, would be besides the point, in the way it appeared to be besides the point within a single social class already, the new class of factory owners. The thing about this super abundance is that you can ask questions if we've reached it already, if we ever could, is it in the future or is it in the past? Like I mean Marx and Engels were amazed at what steam driven ploughs could do, superabundance may have meant the days of plenty the world has already experienced, I'm pretty sure they wouldnt recognise any society experiencing an obesity epidemic as resembling their own society in which starvation and being under feed was a real thing.

    I know Marx described the talk of equality in letters to Engels as "bourgousie cantor" and Engels was just as scathing too, I'm not sure which of them wrote about it but one of them (probably Engels, I've probably read more of him) talked about how great differences where between goat herders on the steppes and the average factory worker, that it would be impossible to make them equal. It was a great illustration of how equality does mean sameness to most people, sameness and a kind of homogenisation.

    I think there's got to be some sort of complexity introduced into the theory of equality for it to be valid, obviously that was lacking, its at least part of the reason that Marx and Engels were so dismissive of it.

    When it comes to questions about any actual communist society that's ever existed resembling anything that Marx or Engels would consider praiseworthy there's a good joke about his being brought to the soviet union by a time traveller and saying "Workers of the world, I'm sorry" and that about sums it up. Marx and Engels only praised a short lived municipal government in all their days, the Paris Commune (communism is short hand for municipalism but is meaning changed), besides that they really liked what they had heard about the colonials in the America, the both wrote about how much they liked the lack of big government there, the fact that there little or no salaried or pensionable officials. Really. No one knows the guys by their own letters and essays. Especially Engels. He wrote plenty of stuff which would make a libertarian go blush. I dont mean a socialist libertarian or an anarchist either, I mean a plain old free market, drug pushing, breaking bad, anti-law enforcement variety.
    Likes Kas liked this post

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