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Thread: Equality

  1. #11
    Endless Coriolis's Avatar
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    Is equality of opportunity important?
    This is the most important. Only when we have it, can we know that people's different outcomes really are a function of their desire, industry, and personal choices.

    Equality of outcome?
    Not important for its own sake, but society overall will do better (greater productivity, less wasted resources) when extremes of outcomes are minimized, at least on the lower/negative end.

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
    It all depends on where we are applying the yardstick of "sameness". Say the Army wants to treat all its new recruits equally. Does that mean each one gets the same size uniform, the same amount of food, the same job training? No. "Equal" here is applied at a higher level, to mean that each recruit gets a properly fitting uniform, adequate food, and job training consistent with his/her abilities and the needs of the Army.

    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
    I have no idea.

    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
    Equality of opportunity is especially important, as it enables the greatest productivity/accomplishment both on an individual level, and for the community/society. This is because limiting opportunity for some people, or allowing artificial limits to persist, prevents them from realizing their potential and using their talents/abilities for the benefit of themselves and others. It is also important in maintaining an atmosphere of fairness, which shows people they will be rewarded for their efforts.

    What are the biggest barriers to equality?
    This is a complicated question, and I may return to it again later. For now, I can see many factors all tangled up: belief that inequality of opportunity is OK (why address something that isn't a problem?); failure to recognize our common humanity (seeing the world in "us" and "them"); disagreement over the best ways to improve equality of opportunity. Most of the "easy" steps to improve equality have been taken, namely changing laws and lifting restrictions that bar certain groups from this or that opportunity. The biggest barrier now is economic. Access to opportunity is often controlled by ability to pay. This especially limits kids/young people who are still dependent on parents/family. The fact that a few here and there are able to rise above this by dint of luck or herculean efforts is often used as evidence that the barriers are not that significant.
    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”– Douglas Adams
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  3. #13
    heartland values Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
    It all depends on where we are applying the yardstick of "sameness". Say the Army wants to treat all its new recruits equally. Does that mean each one gets the same size uniform, the same amount of food, the same job training? No. "Equal" here is applied at a higher level, to mean that each recruit gets a properly fitting uniform, adequate food, and job training consistent with his/her abilities and the needs of the Army.
    I understand the basic point being made here, but I suppose I have some questions about where the boundaries lie. That is, to what extent can a situation be altered for the sake of others, and still be considered equality? I suppose we could define it as when situations are changed for the sake of fulfilling needs. But how are we defining needs? For instance, what would be psychological needs?
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  4. #14
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    For me, this is the wrong question - and the wrong approach.

    Id instead ask: what does each living being need to thrive?

    In the context of a job or situations like it, id ask: what is it each individual can contribute when given the opportunity to thrive and how does that help get the job done in the best possible way? (And contribute to the tribe/society)

    Optimization through support to thrive for each individual id what the word 'equal' should mean when talking about living beings as each is in fact unique.

    It is one of the most common mistakes made, I feel, when systemitizing and generalizing. People typically start from the top down with the objects and plans and drecrees and get pissy when the living organisms they dont bother to take into account - however flexible they may be - cannot conform to that premade box fully and dont thrive.

    We re so used to bending things to our will through force and making things happen that we cant see its just absolutely the wrong approach with living beings and only yields limited short term results with a high price tag for said living being who gets discarded as 'weak' or 'broken'.

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    Equality is horribly unattractive to Humans, which are pack creatures and competitive by nature. When people say they want it, at least regarding equality of outcome, what they really mean is that they want upward mobility. They want more; to be better than they currently are or anyone like them. You never hear people talk about equality in reductionist terms for themselves, it's always about taking away from other people- because nobody wants to voluntarily climb down the ladder for "equality" sake. Up is the only direction, therefore that is the element at play that should be targeted for consideration, not some arbitrary word for "balance" that sounds good morally. If people who preached equality went out and acquired money (without stealing it), then gave half of it to someone else for the sake of furthering the equality agenda, I might start listening to what they had to say.

    The most addictive games for humans are games that begin with some type of equality of opportunity, and then are immediately modified by luck before the player even has much of a say: poker/gambling, PUBG, etc- so in a way we don't even want equality of opportunity in a pure form. We all just want to be better than others and have more than others, and we want God and the luck of fate to provide it for us- to mark us as "chosen." We are cosmic children with daddy attention issues, no more no less.

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    Is equality of opportunity important?

    Yes and no.

    Equality of outcome?

    Not in the slightest.

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

    The harder one tries to rationalize the concept of equality regarding humans, the more complicated it will need to be.

    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

    Undoubtably.

    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
    It's important to understand how the concept pertains to human nature, even though such an understanding will yield the end result that it is antithetical to human nature. It's still important to observe the nuts and bolts of how though.

    What are the biggest barriers to equality?

    Reality. Physics. Gravity. Matter. Inertia. Etc.
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  7. #17
    heartland values Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post

    It is one of the most common mistakes made, I feel, when systemitizing and generalizing. People typically start from the top down with the objects and plans and drecrees and get pissy when the living organisms they dont bother to take into account - however flexible they may be - cannot conform to that premade box fully and dont thrive.
    The general nature of the OP, which determined the direction of the entire thread, was a deliberate choice. I wanted people to fully bring their own interpretations to the table based on their own experiences, something that may not be possible if things were more specific. I also thought it might be useful for stripping any baggage from the discussion, and for making the discussion more politically neutral. I was cognizant of possible methods for preventing this thread from devolving into derailment, which would be more likely if I had not covered the topic in general terms. It takes effort to parse from the general to the specific, which means that people who wish to proceed with talking points rather than the topic at hand will have a significant barrier to overcome.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  8. #18
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    Equality, freedom, equality, love, equality, happiness, equality.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member sLiPpY's Avatar
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    Is equality of opportunity important? No it isn't, being it requires extraordinary cognitive dissonance to even entertain such illusory notions, in the face of a reality that's quite different.

    Equality of outcome? Ah, yes...the "Everyone gets a Trophy" mentality, that has led many employers to actively recruit older workers, they'd previously preferred to have shown the door.

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex? That's an oxymoron, I can't even begin to entertain.

    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality? Good question. Pretty sure it does, ISTP's are typically sought out for a variety of problem solving task, others simply don't have the capacity to do...we pick up naturally, it isn't and cannot be taught at work, home, community, etc.

    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not? Equality is an important concept to those who have illusions to peddle, or the mentality of victim-hood get's their duff's in a mode where either they can feel better about, what they have failed to give themselves, or simply don't have the natural skills, abilities, and effort meets opportunity to do.

    What are the biggest barriers to equality? The stupidity of thinking equality is even remotely possible; or failing to consider the opportunity cost of pursuing the illusion. For example the decades old attempt at creating equality in the higher education system; has resulted in leaving American students behind...when it comes to being prepared and actually qualified for Graduate School in Europe.

  10. #20
    Member devaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    It seems to me that a great deal of the political issues prominent in the 21st century center around the concept of equality. I suppose, then, it might be a useful exercise to see what other people might describe as equality. I suppose I'm curious about people's answers to the following questions. (This isn't intended as a debate thread, and is intended more along the lines of figuring out what people actually think.) Please don't link to YouTube videos from various internet celebrities; I wish to know what you yourself think in your own words, although quotations are fine.


    • Is equality of opportunity important?
    • Equality of outcome?
    • Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
    • Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
    • Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
    • What are the biggest barriers to equality?
    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    It seems to me that a great deal of the political issues prominent in the 21st century center around the concept of equality.
    This is true!

    Is equality of opportunity important?
    Yes. Viewing the world as a play of forces, this is a progressive movement and is in conflict with many adverse developments.

    Equality of outcome?
    If equality is not confounded with hierarchy, which isn't going anywhere as far as one can see, equality of outcome is certainly a welcome possibility and will mean that such a society is ready to take a very great step forward.

    Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
    Simply, it requires a common culture and mind which is very plastic and not merely a written framework for governance. 'Are you a civil person?' is very complex in the hands of the intellectual, but simple enough for the man on the street (or a Typologycentral moderator).

    Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
    Equality of mind is an essential transformation and component and psychological type has its place in understanding oneself and others.

    Samatva - Wikipedia

    Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
    Equality is important, with the caveat that we want to pull up everything and progress and not go the wrong way and all become equal devils. Some arguments against this are that so far there has not been any true equality, even when mandated by force of law or that nature and evolution have proceeded best in breach of the principle. But, for now, this is a good motive to have and build upon, otherwise there is going to be greater violence, destruction and chaos ultimately.

    What are the biggest barriers to equality?
    The nature of humans & the primacy of economic and military motive.
    “By our stumbling, the world is perfected.”
    ― Sri Aurobindo

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