Sharia

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

I agree, I have read the scriptures of all the Abrahamic faiths, they were created in violent time and often bare the mark of that but what is clear is that each human is created in the image of God, to kill is sacrilegious, it isnt something which God will reward.

There are some that believe Islam to be Abrahamic, and some not. Still doing the research on this.

I've always thought Islam was the result of Nestorian Christianity.
The Christian Origins of Islam | Peter J. Leithart | First Things

Others believe Mohammad simply plagiarized the Old Testament and riding on the coattails of Christianity.
ISLAM and the Abrahamic Faith MYTH

The figure of Abraham is central to the faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam with all claiming to be descendants of Abraham’s seed. Islam states that it is just another Abrahamic faith like Judaism and Christianity and indeed replaces the two earlier faiths. This is ideal for Interfaith groups and for Islamic Da’wah as it gives people a sense of comfort knowing that Abraham features prominently in Islam along with other prophets such as Moses and Jesus. Often the Quran is sold as the final revelation from God replacing both the Old Testament and the New Testament. However we should ask ourselves the question “what does it mean to be an Abrahamic faith”? Is it in fact enough that Abraham is figured in the Quran to justify this claim? Even to the casual observer, Islam is pitted against both the Jews and Christians with increasing levels of hostility. Moreover because of Sura 3.110 Muslims believe they are the best of people, evolved for mankind, and thus expect preferential treatment when they emigrate to Western countries with a Judeo-Christian framework.
This article then examines the nature of God for the three religions and the attributes of worship to determine whether they can be classed under the title of Abrahamic faith, remembering Abraham was a man of faith, NOT faiths.

This documentary objectively discusses the origin of our monotheistic God. Towards the end it discusses Islam and to me I'm starting to lean towards Allah not being the same as YHWH, but a taqiyya for us to lower our guard.

 

[Typh0n]

There are some that believe Islam to be Abrahamic, and some not. Still doing the research on this.

I've always thought Islam was the result of Nestorian Christianity.


Others believe Mohammad simply wrote a tall tale essentially riding on the coattails of Christianity.

This patronizing of Christianity shows ignornace, Christianity was influenced by so many things, not least of all the myth of magos which was popular in the region at the time of Jesus, you know as well as I do the men who came to visit Jesus were called magi an Iranian word from which the modern "magic" and "magician" are derived, of course Islam was infleunced by many things, many of those things are rejected by Islam, ironically enough, yet the same is true of Christianity.

You should check out Jesus the Magician by Morton Smith, a book that explains Jesus fits the profile of a magus living in the mediteranean region at the time, there are parellels between the life of Jesus and that of Apollonius of Tyana. The gospels contain many of the clichés of the myth of the magos.

Apollonius of Tyana - Wikipedia

Of course Mohammed wrote a tall tale, then again thats what the gospels are too, so...

That's not to say such documents are worthless, I respect a more symbolic reading of holy texts since essentially that's what they are, symbolic...and having read your posts on here I think you would agree.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

This patronizing of Christianity shows ignornace, Christianity was influenced by so many things, not least of all the myth of magos which was popular in the region at the time of Jesus, you know as well as I do the men who came to visit Jesus were called magi an Iranian word from which the modern "magic" and "magician" are derived, of course Islam was infleunced by many things, many of those things are rejected by Islam, ironically enough, yet the same is true of Christianity.

You should check out Jesus the Magician by Morton Smith, a book that explains Jesus fits the profile of a magus living in the mediteranean region at the time, there are parellels between the life of Jesus and that of Apollonius of Tyana. The gospels contain many of the clichés of the myth of the magos.

Apollonius of Tyana - Wikipedia

Of course Mohammed wrote a tall tale, then again thats what the gospels are too, so...

Right, but in this thread we're talking about Islam. Many of the early church fathers were neo-Platonists as well. Thanks to the (pagan) Greek philosophical tradition, the concept of the Trinity was formed. Etc.

 

[Lark]

There are some that believe Islam to be Abrahamic, and some not. Still doing the research on this.

I've always thought Islam was the result of Nestorian Christianity.
The Christian Origins of Islam | Peter J. Leithart | First Things

Others believe Mohammad simply plagiarized the Old Testament and riding on the coattails of Christianity.
ISLAM and the Abrahamic Faith MYTH



This documentary objectively discusses the origin of our monotheistic God. Towards the end it discusses Islam and to me I'm starting to lean towards Allah not being the same as YHWH, but a taqiyya for us to lower our guard.

Hmm, yeah.

I used that in the popular sense, the three faiths of "the book", its interesting that there are people seeking to divorce islam from that triad because I largely believe if islam in its entirety did disappear, not simply political islam but all islam, then the next target would be Christianity, some success has occured already for the enemies of Christianity on that front.

I do think that Islam is a heresy of Christianity, in the main I agree with Hilaire Belloc's account of that.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

That's not to say such documents are worthless, I respect a more symbolic reading of holy texts since essentially that's what they are, symbolic...and having read your posts on here I think you would agree.

This is true. I do believe the desert Fathers intended a more nuanced, metaphorical, etc. reading of scripture/teachings. Biblical Literalism/Creationism is a relatively new concept.

 

[Typh0n]

Right, but in this thread we're talking about Islam. Many of the early church fathers were neo-Platonists as well. Thanks to the (pagan) Greek philosophical tradition, the concept of the Trinity was formed. Etc.

I think the same logic applies to Islam. I've not read the Qu'ran so I don't pretend to have any knowledge of it, I do respect a more symbolic or metaphorical reading of texts like the bible and Quran, I've nothing against believers. Islam was influenced by many things, just like Christianity. I don't know what else to say about it.

 

[Lark]

This patronizing of Christianity shows ignornace, Christianity was influenced by so many things, not least of all the myth of magos which was popular in the region at the time of Jesus, you know as well as I do the men who came to visit Jesus were called magi an Iranian word from which the modern "magic" and "magician" are derived, of course Islam was infleunced by many things, many of those things are rejected by Islam, ironically enough, yet the same is true of Christianity.

You should check out Jesus the Magician by Morton Smith, a book that explains Jesus fits the profile of a magus living in the mediteranean region at the time, there are parellels between the life of Jesus and that of Apollonius of Tyana. The gospels contain many of the clichés of the myth of the magos.

Apollonius of Tyana - Wikipedia

Of course Mohammed wrote a tall tale, then again thats what the gospels are too, so...

That's not to say such documents are worthless, I respect a more symbolic reading of holy texts since essentially that's what they are, symbolic...and having read your posts on here I think you would agree.

The difference being that the life and ministry of Jesus contains many teachings, including teaching by example and sacrifice which appear perennial, timeless and ahistorical.

How could he have preached a message which was not even emergent given the beliefs, culture, material conditions of the time?

Tall tale or not that sets that apart.

 

[Typh0n]

The difference being that the life and ministry of Jesus contains many teachings, including teaching by example and sacrifice which appear perennial, timeless and ahistorical.

How could he have preached a message which was not even emergent given the beliefs, culture, material conditions of the time?

Tall tale or not that sets that apart.

This is an interpretation though, technically there is no proof of it, not knocking on your beliefs but I feel if you're going to discuss ideas saying there is historical proof that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind, that's a bit of leap...I don't think the gospels were meant to be read as historical documents either, not at all like we would understand history today, not even like the ancients understood it, they are "good news" people accept through faith or they don't.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

This is an interpretation though, technically there is no proof of it, not knocking on your beliefs but I feel if you're going to discuss ideas saying there is historical proof that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind, that's a bit of leap...I don't think the gospels were meant to be read as historical documents either, not at all like we would understand history today, not even like the ancients understood it, they are "good news" people accept through faith or they don't.

Are you arguing from the position that Jesus was not a historical figure, or that Jesus did not sacrifice himself?

 

[Typh0n]

Are you arguing from the position that Jesus was not a historical figure, or that Jesus did not sacrifice himself?

I think Jesus was a historical figure just that the sacrifice is not a historical event.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

I think Jesus was a historical figure just that the sacrifice is not a historical event.

Crucifixion = "sacrifice"?

Or the crucifixion altogether is not historical?

 

[Typh0n]

Crucifixion = "sacrifice"?

Or the crucifixion altogether is not historical?

Crucifixion equals execution, not sacrifice.

Not sure what you're asking here.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Crucifixion equals execution, not sacrifice.

Not sure what you're asking here.

Just ascertaining whether you believe the crucifixion took place at all. For you, the crucifixion equals execution. For me, the crucifixion equals an act of Love, ie: sacrifice.

 

[Metis]

(addressed to Warrior) It sounds to me like an Islamic Warrior taking Islamic propaganda for granted, and believes we should too.

you didn't help found or fund jack squat [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] I call secular taqiyyah, big time! I call BS!

How often disagreement degenerate into personal attacks here! Why is that?

...

 

[Lark]

...

He doesnt see it.

 

[Warrior]

He doesnt see it.

Did I do something wrong?

 

[Coriolis]

Hmm, yeah.

I used that in the popular sense, the three faiths of "the book", its interesting that there are people seeking to divorce islam from that triad because I largely believe if islam in its entirety did disappear, not simply political islam but all islam, then the next target would be Christianity, some success has occured already for the enemies of Christianity on that front.

I do think that Islam is a heresy of Christianity, in the main I agree with Hilaire Belloc's account of that.

I suppose all this hinges on how you define "heresy". I see Christianity as a reform movement of Judaism, just as Bahai faith is a reform movement of Islam. Four "religions of the book".

Crucifixion equals execution, not sacrifice.

Not sure what you're asking here.

Exactly. I think there probably was a historical Jesus, and if he did even half the things attributed to him, it is also likely that he met an untimely and violent end at the hands of the local authorities. If crucifixion was the usual method, then he probably suffered it. IME it is all irrelevant to his teaching and life example,

 

[Metis]

Did I do something wrong?

I was pointing out that he was being kind of silly by accusing you of personal attacks when it seemed like he did it first. I don't want to perseverate on the issue, though. I don't think you should worry about it or take it personally.

its interesting that there are people seeking to divorce islam from that triad because I largely believe if islam in its entirety did disappear, not simply political islam but all islam, then the next target would be Christianity

That's an interesting thought. I heard a similar defense of Christianity from one Muslim, in that he thought that the Catholic church was being undermined from outside of it, with some of the priest pedophelia scandal stuff. I don't believe that that was coming from outside of it, but it was interesting how protective he was of all "people of the book" religions as well as the Sikh religion, which he liked. He seemed concerned about the idea that people were losing religious values, and that religion itself was under attack, as he saw it. If the next target were Christianity, who do you think would be targeting it?