The Spiritual Crisis in America

[Coriolis]

There is a very troubling combination coming together. We dehumanize each other while medicalizing and politicizing evil. The result is indifference and detachment all the way around. Exactly the atmosphere where Satan thrives. It is the atmosphere of Hell itself, leaking like noxious fumes into our world. And there is only one antidote that really works. His name is Christ.

While I agree that an increase in collective neglect of the spiritual dimension serves no one, I disagree that Christ is "the only one antidote". There are many antidotes, as humanity is diverse, and God is persistent.

Christ is the only one that offers that salvation.

I suppose this means that others offer "other" salvation. Some even see no need for salvation. There are many paths to the same mountaintop. The important thing is that one keep climbing.

It's more of a spiritual issue than a left or right political issue which is why I posted in here in the first place.

I would add that it is more of a spiritual issue than a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. issue. God (or whatever exists in the spiritual realm) is bigger than any of our attempts to encapsulate and anthropomorphize him/her/it/them.

I'm not that concerned with peoples ideologies as long as their behavior acts out in kindness instead of harm.

The Bahai's have a saying about identifying a "true prophet" by the fruits of his efforts. This seems similar.

What about a focus on increased compassion?

There is a need beyond joining a religious organization because there can be a lot of unkindness and even cruelty in religious settings as well as other places. Sometimes I feel concerned that all of the rules of various religions distracts people from the true morality of having compassion and respect for their fellow creatures. I don't want to retell anecdotes here, but even as far back as the 1970's there was a lot of cruelty in religious institutions.

Exactly. Even Jesus appreciated (and ran afoul of) this. You can be spiritual without belonging to a religious tradition or organization. You can be compassionate and humane without even being spiritual, though I think the daily practice of compassion and thought for your fellow human would sort of set up its own spiritual dimension.

It seems to me that the human tendency towards gossip and judging others has been put on steroids because of social media. The media has deteriorated into a bit of a sorry state. You really can't trust what you read on the Internet. As trite as it sounds, Trump is actually correct in his observation of "fake news". When the news media went from loss leader to profit center, sensationalism took over. The Internet and social media has only exacerbated this. Corporate greed. Profits. People's need to aggrandize themselves. Etc.

I generally put more stock in the mainstream media than many folks, at least in aggregate when I can cross-check reports from various organizations across the spectrum, including overseas. Still, I do agree about the negative influence of money on journalism, specifically that endless quest for ratings. I long ago ceased watching local news because it is just a litany of sensational events like fires, robberies, the old guy with 43 cats in desperate condition, etc. No talk of what local governing bodies are doing, or changes in the school system, or steps to improve public health or safety. In short, no news I can actually "use", about things that will directly affect my life.

Money seems to have a negative influence on everything driven by it - media, education, health care, even the justice system. If we expect market forces to be the main/only arbiter of social good, though, that is what we get.

 

[Lark]

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!

 

[Jaq]

Yeah but if you fancy proper food rather than a buffet there's the one, the only, holy, roman and apostolic church!



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Do you think that's religion at its worst or at its best?

It's a wash, sure chasing a perfection of a noble life is one thing. Sort of a shoot for the moon, so you can at least be with the stars sort of logic, but that is me putting a lot of faith in humanity. I guess my thoughts are religion is too complex to be simply broken down.

 

[Lark]

It's a wash, sure chasing a perfection of a noble life is one thing. Sort of a shoot for the moon, so you can at least be with the stars sort of logic, but that is me putting a lot of faith in humanity. I guess my thoughts are religion is too complex to be simply broken down.

If your read enough AD&D clerics, paladins and monks books I find it can restore faith in God and man!

Which I believe is essential for when Qlip accidentially unleashes the hellspawn upon us all and we have to make with the holy ninjitsu to defend ourselves!

 

[Jaq]

If your read enough AD&D clerics, paladins and monks books I find it can restore faith in God and man!

Which I believe is essential for when Qlip accidentially unleashes the hellspawn upon us all and we have to make with the holy ninjitsu to defend ourselves!

In the end let people believe what they want to believe. I'm not religious myself, but if someone wants to be religious I say let them. I draw a line when someone tries to make everyone else in their life religious too. People should have the right to their own mind, their own thoughts, and their own beliefs.

I know that opens the question of, "Well, what if their beliefs are to make everyone else believe the same thing?" It's a vicious circle that I dare not dive into.

 

[Lark]

In the end let people believe what they want to believe. I'm not religious myself, but if someone wants to be religious I say let them. I draw a line when someone tries to make everyone else in their life religious too. People should have the right to their own mind, their own thoughts, and their own beliefs.

I know that opens the question of, "Well, what if their beliefs are to make everyone else believe the same thing?" It's a vicious circle that I dare not dive into.

True religion can not be compelled, anyone who evangelises in the manner you speak of over compensating for a private doubt.

 

[Jaq]

True religion can not be compelled, anyone who evangelises in the manner you speak of over compensating for a private doubt.

I suppose so.

 

[Lark]

I suppose so.

Unless.

You know the secret of the Shaolin Temple?!

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Since this turned into an impromptu Western vs Eastern Christianity thread, read it and weep:

Orthodox Criticism of the Western Christian Teaching on Personal Salvation / OrthoChristian.Com

2.2 Roman law and secular customs as the foundation of the Western non-Orthodox theology of personal salvation.

From Apostolic times, the Christian Church in the West was developing in the highly legalistic Roman society and undoubtedly bore its imprint. Law was “the main element” of the Roman culture and “defined all its familial, social and state relations. Religion was not an exception – it was one of the applications of law. When becoming a Christian, it was from this side that a Roman citizen would try to understand Christianity: in it he was seeking first of all, juridical consistency.”[11]

A typical young person in the medieval West would learn Latin first, before anything else. And the way one learned Latin then was through studying the best Latin texts available. Those would typically be the speeches by the best orators – who invariably were courtroom lawyers. So, before one would get to study the Gospels, written in Latin, he would already have been immersed in legal terminology and a legalistic way of thinking for years.

So it would be natural for him to start looking at the Gospels as would a lawyer: the world as courtroom, with God as the judge, man as the accused, devil as the accuser, and Christ as the advocate. The law says that the punishment for sin is death. Wishing to defend man, Christ tells the Judge: don’t kill him, kill me instead. So, according to this legalistic picture, God the Father agrees to kill His Son instead of man – and thus to forgive man.[12]

This simplistic but convincing (on the human level) picture would also fit very well with the customs existing in medieval Western society. “The Latin-Protestant concept of the Redemption as the revenge of the Divine Majesty, once offended by Adam, on Jesus Christ… grew out of the feudal notion of knightly honor, restorable by shedding the blood of the offender.”[13]

Romans...

 

[Lark]

Since this turned into an impromptu Western vs Eastern Christianity thread, read it and weep:

Orthodox Criticism of the Western Christian Teaching on Personal Salvation / OrthoChristian.Com



Romans...

Well, that's one perspective. There are others.

 

[highlander]

I generally put more stock in the mainstream media than many folks, at least in aggregate when I can cross-check reports from various organizations across the spectrum, including overseas. Still, I do agree about the negative influence of money on journalism, specifically that endless quest for ratings. I long ago ceased watching local news because it is just a litany of sensational events like fires, robberies, the old guy with 43 cats in desperate condition, etc. No talk of what local governing bodies are doing, or changes in the school system, or steps to improve public health or safety. In short, no news I can actually "use", about things that will directly affect my life.

Money seems to have a negative influence on everything driven by it - media, education, health care, even the justice system. If we expect market forces to be the main/only arbiter of social good, though, that is what we get.

What you need to realize is they all copy each other's stories. Someone reports something and the story spreads like wildfire regardless as to whether or not its true. Then you get the bloggers and opinion pieces that take the most sensationalized bits of information from false news and it's expounded upon and elaborated on in a speculative way. The story might even start or be fed by a well respected blogger (or less respected one) who has bad sources and/or makes shit up. What you will see is consistently reported information which is false to begin with, gets distorted beyond any recognition of the truth. It's sad because it means you really can't trust what you read or see in the news.

To Fix Fake News, Look To Yellow Journalism | JSTOR Daily

 

[Mal12345]

I generally put more stock in the mainstream media than many folks, at least in aggregate when I can cross-check reports from various organizations across the spectrum, including overseas. Still, I do agree about the negative influence of money on journalism, specifically that endless quest for ratings. I long ago ceased watching local news because it is just a litany of sensational events like fires, robberies, the old guy with 43 cats in desperate condition, etc. No talk of what local governing bodies are doing, or changes in the school system, or steps to improve public health or safety. In short, no news I can actually "use", about things that will directly affect my life.

At the risk of causing thread drift, I just want to say that our local news does not focus only on the sensational. Every night there is an interview with someone involved in the local educational system. But that's after the sensational news is over, but before weather and sports.

I change the channel.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

While I agree that an increase in collective neglect of the spiritual dimension serves no one, I disagree that Christ is "the only one antidote". There are many antidotes, as humanity is diverse, and God is persistent.

I'm not a relativist, so I stand-by my support and advocacy of The Way. Nor is anyone preventing you from advocating your God, either.

I suppose this means that others offer "other" salvation. Some even see no need for salvation. There are many paths to the same mountaintop. The important thing is that one keep climbing.

I'm sure I meant "spiritual" salvation in response to ceecee (if you go back through the string), in which I described it as that salvation in response to her post.

I would add that it is more of a spiritual issue than a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. issue. God (or whatever exists in the spiritual realm) is bigger than any of our attempts to encapsulate and anthropomorphize him/her/it/them.

Right, but as the starter of this thread and being a follower of The Way I'm under no obligation to advocate other religions. Nor is anyone preventing you from advocating your own.

 

[Coriolis]

What you need to realize is they all copy each other's stories. Someone reports something and the story spreads like wildfire regardless as to whether or not its true. Then you get the bloggers and opinion pieces that take the most sensationalized bits of information from false news and it's expounded upon and elaborated on in a speculative way. The story might even start or be fed by a well respected blogger (or less respected one) who has bad sources and/or makes shit up. What you will see is consistently reported information which is false to begin with, gets distorted beyond any recognition of the truth. It's sad because it means you really can't trust what you read or see in the news.

Oh, the copied stories are easy to follow, for exactly the reasons you mention. Foreign news sources can be good as a check on this. It is just as harmful and irresponsible to ignore everything put out by the news media. That is just another form of willful ignorance. Better to do your due diligence as a consumer of information, a citizen, and a voter; reward/recognize news outlets/reporters that have better track records than their peers; and look for ways to disrupt the hold of money/advertising on what is reported and how (not sure how to do this last).

Right, but as the starter of this thread and being a follower of The Way I'm under no obligation to advocate other religions. Nor is anyone preventing you from advocating your own.

You are welcome to your beliefs, even including the belief that yours is the only "right" way. Claiming something is the best option for you is not the same as claiming it is best for everyone, across the board. If you present your way, however, as the only solution to the "spirituality crisis in America", assuming anyone agrees that such a crisis exists, you can expect pushback due to the subjective nature of the topic.

Many faiths and their adherents feel no need to push their faith on others, or claim it is the best/only way. These tend not to be "religions of the book", though Jews and Bahai's tend to be more respecting of other faiths than Christians and Muslims.

 

[Jaguar]

.

Christ.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

You are welcome to your beliefs, even including the belief that yours is the only "right" way. Claiming something is the best option for you is not the same as claiming it is best for everyone, across the board. If you present your way, however, as the only solution to the "spirituality crisis in America", assuming anyone agrees that such a crisis exists, you can expect pushback due to the subjective nature of the topic.

Many faiths and their adherents feel no need to push their faith on others, or claim it is the best/only way. These tend not to be "religions of the book", though Jews and Bahai's tend to be more respecting of other faiths than Christians and Muslims.

I'm the only one presenting any Way. Feel free to detract from The Way and present your own. So far, all you (and anyone else so far) are doing is criticizing without offering anything in return besides the COEXIST philosophy that the Western world is already failing at.

(My position regarding COEXIST is: It doesn't work at the macro-level)

Like I said in my other thread: Spiritual Stages of Christian Mysticism
I would readily get along with a thoughtful Sufi, than a fundamentalist (literalist exoteric) of my own stripe. The first step is to advocate a position before a discussion can begin. Nah, the first step is to have a position (or skin in the game) in the first place.

 

[Jaguar]

Hah, so curt.

It's some of that warm Christ shit, my man.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=22178]magpie[/MENTION] Huh, I'm actually a pretty happy nihilist, but I also believe in a life and love and protecting that which I find valuable AND I disagree on those particular policies you mentioned, and I'd love for life, greater and lesser, to continue in a healthy happy way. Life and living is pretty complex, there is no one truth, no one red-pill. From what I know, this is the most objective viewpoint possible, and scary, yes.

It's very easy to vilify people who you disagree with.

It’s interesting to me, mainly because I see parallels to positive nihilism and Christianity. Both don’t put much stock in or are skeptical of “this world” and where they spilt (IMO) is in where they gather their strength - positive nihilism would say through the self (individual) and Christianity says the self via God. (I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me).

A positive nihilst and a Christian probably or can look on the surface about the same in terms of how they approach life. Ideally, taking initiative to help our fellow humans - being selfless.

A nihilist, who thinks so strongly in terms of there is nothing worth believing in that s/he sees no use for nuances of morality. Well, That breeds an extreme form of selfishness. It’s a sort of selfishness that Christianity, on a broad scale, prevents by belief. (Universalism vs individualism at heart of the matter).

So, Christians would be “threatened” by nihilism. Or see it as ultimately destructive because they see the worst in it and don’t see the benefits of strengthening oneself. Likewise, a nihilist would see Christianity as mind control for the masses because they see the worst in it. See it as something to stamp out individuality but not seeing the humanitarian benefit that spirituality (in the case of this thread, Christianity) can bring.

I guess it’s what...the narcissism of small differences. Forget who said that.

 

[á´…eparted]

Oh, the copied stories are easy to follow, for exactly the reasons you mention. Foreign news sources can be good as a check on this. It is just as harmful and irresponsible to ignore everything put out by the news media. That is just another form of willful ignorance. Better to do your due diligence as a consumer of information, a citizen, and a voter; reward/recognize news outlets/reporters that have better track records than their peers; and look for ways to disrupt the hold of money/advertising on what is reported and how (not sure how to do this last).

This.

It really is not hard to tell the difference between fake news, and what is real. Granted sometimes it takes some time for the dust to settle if it's a fresh story and reporters are still looking for information. I honestly feel little to no sympathy for people who fall for fake news, or improperly claim something as fake when it isn't. They did not look hard enough, or consider reality heavily enough.

But really, this circular news citing is much much more common on the right than it is on the left. I mean, that's basically what the entirety of the republican party does. But, given highlander subscribes to republican views, I am not the least bit surprised he doesn't get it.

I'm the only one presenting any Way. Feel free to detract from The Way and present your own. So far, all you (and anyone else so far) are doing is criticizing without offering anything in return besides the COEXIST philosophy that the Western world is already failing at.

(My position regarding COEXIST is: It doesn't work at the macro-level)

Like I said in my other thread: Spiritual Stages of Christian Mysticism
I would readily get along with a thoughtful Sufi, than a fundamentalist (literalist exoteric) of my own stripe. The first step is to advocate a position before a discussion can begin. Nah, the first step is to have a position (or skin in the game) in the first place.

The only spirituality crisis I ever see is religious fanatics and evangelicals desiring and causing strife for anyone who doesn't fall into their group. Which, really isn't a crisis of spirituality, but a crisis of lack of education and economic support.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

The only spirituality crisis I ever see is religious fanatics and evangelicals desiring and causing strife for anyone who doesn't fall into their group. Which, really isn't a crisis of spirituality, but a crisis of lack of education and economic support.

You can't see it because you don't have it. If you do have it, please explain what it is you have.