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Death: What's the problem?

Gewitter27

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Death is simply the natural ceasing of life. Without death everybody would be miserable. How would you like it if you were eaten, and retained conciousness whilst being digested? Not exactly a very pleasant scenario. If nothing died, we'd be up to our knees in moaning people. Death is for the best: Without it everyone's Quality of Life goes way down, people feel gnawing hunger of starvation due to being forgotten but never having the pain alleviate, there becomes a true crisis for food, etc.

Basically, without death, we can't survive. And with it we can't either. I'd prefer death to exist than not.
 

Katsuni

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I'm sorry to state that I refuse to agree with ayoitsStepho on this one; it relies solely upon the assumption that the ONLY reason god created us was because his angels ended up going to war with each other and killing each other off. The only reason he made the angels in the first place was so that they could endlessly worship him and say how great a guy he was and so on without end. They weren't created for any purpose other than a selfish desire for ego inflation of god, and when they screwed that up, he decided to make humans to continue the ego inflation trend.

The capacity of being able to think for yeurself, and the capacity to feel pleasure are not benefits given to us for our benefit, but rather, thinking for yeurself means the praise feels 'real' and not hollow; if yeu made a bunch of mindless robots endlessly repeating the same prayers over and over without end, it wouldn't feel all that great. But to make people actually WANT to do so, yeu have to give them a reason, and that reason is "it makes yeu feel good". If we had both free will, and no pleasure, we wouldn't worship god. If we had pleasure and no free will, then the pleasure would be pointless. If we have no free will then our praise means nothing.

The only purpose for individuals beyond this, is therefore to influence each other. How many people were brutally tortured or killed in the bible to 'set an example' to others to 'encourage' the rest of the people to continue the trend of praise?

I absolutely refuse to look at god in this, the accepted dogma of the church. It's disgusting to think of a cruel being that has this large an ego that he has to create people for the sole purpose of getting to hear them brag about how great he is. I flat out refuse to accept that as the nature of god, or that my only purpose in life is to provide any service to such a horribly malicious being.



That being said, I'd like to think that there's meaning beyond our limited greedy and selfish understanding. I'd like to think that god is just being anthromorphized into being given false human traits, and that, if he exists in a manner similar to our understanding, that he is not a rude, arrogant, egotistical brat, and us little more than his dancing monkies.

If this is, however the case, I will be greatly pleased to disappoint him. If not the case, then I shall continue to seek my own purpose, which may or may not be divine in origin.

But to exist to give praise to someone who obviously doesn't deserve it, is not one of them, and not one I'm willing to accept.
 

Haphazard

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People don't remember not existing, so it seems like going back to that would be a difficult adjustment.
 

INTJMom

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Figured I'd stress the qualifying statement within that quote.

"in heaven".

Not 'here on earth but in heaven'.

I was specifically stating *IF THERE WAS NO HEAVEN AT ALL* then worshipping god on earth would be a pointless chore, with no reward because there'd be no heaven, or afterlife in general.

If someone gives yeu an endless supply of menial tasks to do, and gets angry at yeu if yeu don't perform them with all yeur heart, despite that they are not paying yeu back in any manner of speaking at all, not with money, not with goods, not with services, and not with heaven, then this would be slavery.

That being said, the christian bible's definition of 'heaven' is actually about the same idea as my concept of a hell for the mind and soul, while the 'real hell' would be a hell for the body. Neither's all that attractive of a choice. This has no relevance upon whot I was stating in my post that was quoted though, just a statement in response to yeur own =3
Sorry. I misunderstood.
 

Katsuni

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Sorry. I misunderstood.

No problem, I don't mean to be harsh, though I do get wrapped up in the moment easily XD

That being said, if there were no afterlife, and no eternal reward, there would be no reason to worship god, as it literally would be slavery. Perhaps that's the biggest reason why it's emphasized so much? No clue, so hard to say. I guess we'll all figure it out if there's an afterlife eventually, whether we want to or not ^.~
 

Jonny

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Evolutionarily speaking, those individuals who feared death and the unknown consequently sought with greater vigor to avoid death and discover truth. This led to those individuals having more knowledge with which to advance and longer lives in which they could proliferate. Thus, they would successfully produce more offspring and those traits would saturate the gene pool.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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Evolutionarily speaking, those individuals who feared death and the unknown consequently sought with greater vigor to avoid death and discover truth. This led to those individuals having more knowledge with which to advance and longer lives in which they could proliferate. Thus, they would successfully produce more offspring and those traits would saturate the gene pool.


individuals who fear the unknown stay indoors a lot and tend to keep to themselves.
 

Katsuni

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individuals who fear the unknown stay indoors a lot and tend to keep to themselves.

But not always!

Some of us rather enjoy the unknown! Which's why we stay indoors and keep to ourselves... because teh inturwebz are far more saturated with unknowns than anything yeu can find easily in reality without a massively large budget ^.~
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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Cannibalism is the answer to death. wait, wait...i mean, people should eat other people to keep emissions down. I think the quality of life would improve incredibly for the cannibals as the human population dwindles......death wouldn't matter as much if we lived better.
 

Xander

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But the animals and other things on this Earth dont decide their purpose, so why do we? Simply because we can speak and think for ourselves? I'm saying [even though this may stray off the topic a bit] that i believe in something bigger than us, than who we are. I believe it is God. I have a sence of peace and calmness knowing that God is leading me to where I need to be. He know's my purpose, i cannot create my own. People as a whole are emotional and unable to make choices to actually choose their purpose in my mind. You'd have to be able to see the WHOLE picture of what happened, what is, and what's to come. We simply cant do that. No matter how smart or wise we think we are, we'll screw our 'purpose' up if we make it up, or heck, we'll even change our mind multiple times. Thats not a purpose. We're human, we're not perfect. We dont have the ablility to be perfect, no matter how hard we try. So why should we be in charge of our own purpose?
Now I'm trying to be respectful here, forgive me if I err..

I am slightly envious of your belief but I don't share it. If our purpose is determined by some being then why persist with evil? If this being is divine then surely either he/she/it is as warped as we are (hence our diverse purposes) or isn't in complete control.

I realise that the official line is that you shouldn't challenge "the plan" but I'm afraid that, to me, is an excuse for not having a good reason.

But before we get into the peaks and troughs of religion, what if you don't feel the divine? How do you reason your purpose? Is it purely a religious belief you hold or does it exist without the belief in a deity?

(Oh and I definitely agree that complete understanding is beyond our reach, though I don't understand how that affects our purpose. Surely no purpose is objectively correct so they don't require complete understanding. No?)
 

BlackCat

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The problem with death is that you're dead!

But really, no matter what you believe or think, you'll know when you get there.
 

Xander

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The problem with death is that you're dead!

But really, no matter what you believe or think, you'll know when you get there.
Precisely...except that does not seem to be enough for many people and they spend half their life considering what will happen when their life ceases to be. I was just wondering on the sense of that.
 

INTJMom

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Precisely...except that does not seem to be enough for many people and they spend half their life considering what will happen when their life ceases to be. I was just wondering on the sense of that.
The purpose of thinking about it ahead of time is preparation. Being a P though, that's probably why you aren't that interested in preparing ahead of time.

If you're right... that there is nothing but nothingness after death... then you're right: it's foolish to waste time thinking about it or worrying about it.

But what if you're wrong....

...then a pursuit of the Truth is in order.
 

Xander

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The purpose of thinking about it ahead of time is preparation. Being a P though, that's probably why you aren't that interested in preparing ahead of time.

If you're right... that there is nothing but nothingness after death... then you're right: it's foolish to waste time thinking about it or worrying about it.

But what if you're wrong....

...then a pursuit of the Truth is in order.
:rofl1: :hug: Nice try but I've already done that. The parameters are ill defined enough, the "facts" laced with assumption.

I gave up on Socrates as a mad fool because he decided he'd understood the afterlife. It is my faith that belief or non belief in supreme beings and afterlife is irrelevant to life itself. I dislike the concept of getting judged at all but I wholly object to using that to enforce good behaviour. As a moral being I believe that to be good you must choose to be good without any provocation otherwise you are simply choosing to not resist. Ergo faith leaves me cold and science... well that's just faith but without the sense of community. I tried philosophy but instead of wisdom found a lot of people with tunnel vision. I think my current sense of faith is that life unfolds whether I decide to admit it or not and it will continue with or without me, past that I observe and consider trying not to claim that I understand too much.

(okay that started simple but turned into my own philosophy... I shall leave it and hope it throws some light...)

Edit - I will concede that perhaps my own wait and see approach is perhaps in part due to my comfortability with the unknown and compensating on the fly... However I would put it to you that cannot that be used as an example for those who like to predict?
 

ayoitsStepho

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Now I'm trying to be respectful here, forgive me if I err..

I am slightly envious of your belief but I don't share it. If our purpose is determined by some being then why persist with evil? If this being is divine then surely either he/she/it is as warped as we are (hence our diverse purposes) or isn't in complete control.

I realise that the official line is that you shouldn't challenge "the plan" but I'm afraid that, to me, is an excuse for not having a good reason.

But before we get into the peaks and troughs of religion, what if you don't feel the divine? How do you reason your purpose? Is it purely a religious belief you hold or does it exist without the belief in a deity?

(Oh and I definitely agree that complete understanding is beyond our reach, though I don't understand how that affects our purpose. Surely no purpose is objectively correct so they don't require complete understanding. No?)

and thats completely fine. We both have different ideas as to what will happen after death. Different reasons and different ways we came to that conclussions.
Actually yes i believe there's a plan. but i dont believe that im gonna keep on the course very well. i mean...really who can? if there was a plan that is. It gives me a better sence of calm to think theres a plan. that im not just wondering around here for no reason...or to just please people around me and then die ya know? And we're not going to know until we die of coarse. I suppose some would say that the 'plan' approach is just a crutch, but it allows me to live my life to the fullest and not regret anything because i believe its in some sort of plan. Of coarse im sure anyone could live that way and not think there's a plan.

mmm everybody has a purpose i believe. whether or not you believe in a devine being or not. i suppose i just want to know why im here, whats it affecting and what will happen in the long run. God just seems to answer my questions and like i said before, puts me in peace. But we play a role [this is how i see it in my mind] why would i have a purpose and not someone who doesnt believe in the devine? we all affect eachother in some way that leads us to who we are and will be. that could lead us to our purposeful role or not. It is simply a way i see it :]

oh and for the complete reasoning, i see a bit of a picture in my head. if we choose our purpose, then i see us all kind of bumping into eachother and running others over. but when someone/something is leading us we all run side by and in the right direction. in unison. like a well oiled machine.

Let me know your thoughts :]
 

Xander

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and thats completely fine. We both have different ideas as to what will happen after death. Different reasons and different ways we came to that conclussions.
Actually yes i believe there's a plan. but i dont believe that im gonna keep on the course very well. i mean...really who can? if there was a plan that is. It gives me a better sence of calm to think theres a plan. that im not just wondering around here for no reason...or to just please people around me and then die ya know? And we're not going to know until we die of coarse. I suppose some would say that the 'plan' approach is just a crutch, but it allows me to live my life to the fullest and not regret anything because i believe its in some sort of plan. Of coarse im sure anyone could live that way and not think there's a plan.
Wait you like the idea of a plan that you're not going to stick to?

I'm probably being picky but I'm unfamiliar with being happy with a plan. That's a very J type of calm to my mind.
mmm everybody has a purpose i believe. whether or not you believe in a devine being or not. i suppose i just want to know why im here, whats it affecting and what will happen in the long run. God just seems to answer my questions and like i said before, puts me in peace. But we play a role [this is how i see it in my mind] why would i have a purpose and not someone who doesnt believe in the devine? we all affect eachother in some way that leads us to who we are and will be. that could lead us to our purposeful role or not. It is simply a way i see it :]

oh and for the complete reasoning, i see a bit of a picture in my head. if we choose our purpose, then i see us all kind of bumping into eachother and running others over. but when someone/something is leading us we all run side by and in the right direction. in unison. like a well oiled machine.

Let me know your thoughts :]
If I read you right then one of your basic tenants is that there must be more to life than what is presented, yes? A nagging feeling that if you believe all that you see as you see it then you're missing something?

If so then upon that we can agree. I guess then the main difference would be almost purely J vs P. I'm happy to leave it undefined and compensate as it arrives. I have little need and draw little comfort from trying to lay down rules. Now I say rules but what I should say is "such strongly defined parameters" because I've realised after having spent so much time around Js (my family is stacked with the little blighters) that no type no matter how certain they seem have rules. J's just simply extrovert their strong definitions...

So yeah, agree. With one or two minor, tiny disagreements... :newwink: (That's minor and tiny to an agnostic... you know like whether God exists... mere flippancies :whistling: )
 

matmos

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Death. It's the body's way of calling it a day.

I wouldn't worry about it. If you were around in the Bronze Age you'd be lucky to make 19; in Medieval England getting into your 30s would have been an achievement.

Just think: you can smoke, drink, never exercise and eat like a pig and still get into your 50s & 60s. Lucky you.

:)
 
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