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Death: What's the problem?

Sacrator

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Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

I went through a period when i decided that i was agnostic. I believe that when your dead your dead and that's it. It really bothered me for a little while and i actually started to look into research institutes dedicated to solving the mysteries of human aging. After looking around i found out human aging will soon be a thing of the past in the next couple thousand years or less. But soon after i just stopped caring and didn't let it get to me anymore. I think the essence of me will live on in my children and i should be glad that i shared the gift of consciousness with them and the children they will have.
 

Xander

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But then you would just be the really clever guy over here who said something people believed. Truth is, none of it is provable so people are just going to go with what works for them.
I thought of that whilst posting. In retrospect you cannot help but have something that people accept as true without question but, as with hope, that shouldn't prevent you trying. If we were lead by questions instead of answers we'd be a wiser society as a whole.
I went through a period when i decided that i was agnostic. I believe that when your dead your dead and that's it. It really bothered me for a little while and i actually started to look into research institutes dedicated to solving the mysteries of human aging. After looking around i found out human aging will soon be a thing of the past in the next couple thousand years or less. But soon after i just stopped caring and didn't let it get to me anymore. I think the essence of me will live on in my children and i should be glad that i shared the gift of consciousness with them and the children they will have.
What? In a thousand years or so... Who thinks this stuff up? What did they use as the model? A projection of our continued desire to outlive our usefulness? Did they expect random events? Are they mystics?

You may as well say that in a thousand years tomatoes will rule california... I mean who's to say it's wrong or right?
 

INTJMom

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When I was a kid, I remember seeing a show on television that explained how someday we will be able to see people on the other end of the phone when we are talking to them. It seemed impossibly outlandish at the time.
 

Xander

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When I was a kid, I remember seeing a show on television that explained how someday we will be able to see people on the other end of the phone when we are talking to them. It seemed impossibly outlandish at the time.
And still is. Funnily enough they never reckoned that people don't want to see who they're talking to every time. Hence household phones aren't video phones in 99% of homes. They could have pursued the technology but it wasn't viable.

The point is that anything can be claimed to happen in a thousand years.

"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."
 

NewEra

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Where are you when you're asleep? Do you panic when you feel tired? Are you afraid of falling asleep? If not then what's the deal with death? No, really.

Difference is, when I go to sleep, I expect to wake up. Death is something which cannot be predicted as far as time, place, cause, etc. goes. When you sleep, you're still existing, still breathing.

If there is nothing after death, then life really is a gift.
 

luminous beam

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I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

Like Gen says, it's all about fear of loss [and thus fear of emotional pain].
For those who have been left behind, since the dead feel nothing.

I always saw funerals as being pointless since the dead is no longer able to see or partake in any "celebration." But I suppose I understand such ritual to exist in order to offer the dead's family and friends some sort of time together to try and get closure.

I had a dream last night about someone I loved possibly dying, and it sucked big time.
I wonder if this had anything to do with him mocking Evan about his dead gf ha.

You run from death? You'll be running from life too.
Death is a part of life, we all encounter people around us dying and one day, we too shall pass.
 

lowtech redneck

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But why associate the loss of hope with hopelessness?

I personally find faith a wonderful thing but religion an organisation worthy of purging from our society for it's habitually abusive behaviour.

My point basically was to wonder why people worry about the end for the duration of the journey. It's like living death with some people. To my mind the end cannot come quickly enough for them. At least that way they won't have to worry about it all the time.

1.) I suppose the immediate reason for most people is that they think in terms of words rather than concepts, and the definition of hopelessness is "without hope." Philosophically, its because the only conceivable alternate state to having hope or not having hope is to exist completely in the moment without anticipation for future events and possibilities, a state of being which is contrary (except for brief periods) to civilization itself.

2.) and 3.) The reason that organized religious doctrines are so popular is that there is no rational reason to believe in an afterlife or other supernatural concepts, leading to repeated doubts and overall lack of confidence concerning one's "faith" without the social and (most importantly) mental habituation that organized religion provides. To put it bluntly, religion enables people to brainwash themselves into believing what they need to believe in order to enjoy life without the fear of death which led them to embrace some "faith" in supernatural concepts in the first place. In short, for most believers religion/faith is a means of overcoming preoccupation with the fear of death, rather than the cause of it. In the interest of utilitarianism (if not necessarily the hedonistic preferences of the minority of people who seem to be happier without religious beliefs), it would be better to reform organized religion (which for the most part has already taken place in developed Christian and Buddhist countries) rather than attempt to purge it from society.

Edit: in case there is any misunderstanding, my use of the word "hedonism" is meant solely to distinguish between personal utility and aggregate utility, not as an endorsement of any particular concept of morality.
 
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Katsuni

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Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

I haven't read the rest of the thread, specifically because it'd alter how I respond here XD

But yeah, there's a few issues with it for MOST people:


- It is unknown, not knowing is scarry
- It is INFINITE, infinite DEATH is beyond human comprehension
- Fear of afterlife; those who do believe in an afterlife have fear of infinite reprocussions for finite sin, this can make them terrified that if they did ONE thing wrong, they'd burn in hell forever or whotever
- Not being able to see the future, never getting to see their children grow up, can be heartbreaking to some
- Not finishing whot they were doing; they may feel compelled to have some task to complete and get pissy if they weren't done yet because death's an impatient bastage that just won't wait
- Not wanting to give up their loved ones, they often feel compelled to remain behind to give strength and be with the ones they care about


Things like children, a legacy, a monument, history, these are things to allow people to 'exist after death', and continue on. I won't bother touching on them right now, but for the most part, they fail, for the same reason most of the reasons do.



I am only really affected by one... the lack of seeing the future. I'd love to see the technological advances we'd make years from now, but I won't get to. It's a shame really but whot can yeu do?

The rest... well... YEU'RE DEAD.

Yes, death is in and of itself it's own solution.

If yeu're DEAD, yeu're not around to care anymore now are yeu?

If we go to some afterlife, then yeu won't be thinking about yeur previous existance. If yeu disappear entirely, well then yeu don't exist so can't care either. Once yeu're gone, either way, yeu have no further care about whot happened in yeur life anymore. Yeu. Are. Gone. There is no comming back, except through the belief of reincarnation, and even then that's worthless because yeu don't remember any of it so whot was the point of that? Regardless, yeu still don't remember it, so it still doesn't affect yeu.

By all definitions, once yeu are dead, it no longer matters whot happened in life, or whot yeu missed out on, or anything yeu failed to accomplish. Yeu're dead, so yeu don't care anymore.

The only thing yeu can fear is something yeu don't understand, but I figure, by the time I get to the point where I have to face the infinite, I won't be around to consider the alternatives anymore so it's kind of pointless now isn't it to worry about the whole thing huh?

In any case, most people are just scared, of one thing or another. Of the unknown, or not being able to do whotever, but they're scared of things they can't control. It's a waste of resources, spend yeur life working on the things yeu CAN control. Extend yeur life if yeu can if it's feasable, but don't panic over it. If yeu die, yeu die, yes it sucks but yeu're not around to care so stop worrying about it. If yeu worry, all yeu'll have done is wasted the time yeu did have, and were so busy worrying yeu probably missed out on a great number of opportunities that could've helped yeu out in other ways.

So yeah... death MAY be bad, or it MAY not, either way, the point is moot and irrelevant. Yeu will not be there to see it so yeu really shouldn't concern yeurself with it right now.
 

luminous beam

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I haven't read the rest of the thread, specifically because it'd alter how I respond here XD

But yeah, there's a few issues with it for MOST people:


- It is unknown, not knowing is scarry
- It is INFINITE, infinite DEATH is beyond human comprehension
- Fear of afterlife; those who do believe in an afterlife have fear of infinite reprocussions for finite sin, this can make them terrified that if they did ONE thing wrong, they'd burn in hell forever or whotever
- Not being able to see the future, never getting to see their children grow up, can be heartbreaking to some
- Not finishing whot they were doing; they may feel compelled to have some task to complete and get pissy if they weren't done yet because death's an impatient bastage that just won't wait
- Not wanting to give up their loved ones, they often feel compelled to remain behind to give strength and be with the ones they care about


Things like children, a legacy, a monument, history, these are things to allow people to 'exist after death', and continue on. I won't bother touching on them right now, but for the most part, they fail, for the same reason most of the reasons do.



I am only really affected by one... the lack of seeing the future. I'd love to see the technological advances we'd make years from now, but I won't get to. It's a shame really but whot can yeu do?

The rest... well... YEU'RE DEAD.

Yes, death is in and of itself it's own solution.

If yeu're DEAD, yeu're not around to care anymore now are yeu?

If we go to some afterlife, then yeu won't be thinking about yeur previous existance. If yeu disappear entirely, well then yeu don't exist so can't care either. Once yeu're gone, either way, yeu have no further care about whot happened in yeur life anymore. Yeu. Are. Gone. There is no comming back, except through the belief of reincarnation, and even then that's worthless because yeu don't remember any of it so whot was the point of that? Regardless, yeu still don't remember it, so it still doesn't affect yeu.

By all definitions, once yeu are dead, it no longer matters whot happened in life, or whot yeu missed out on, or anything yeu failed to accomplish. Yeu're dead, so yeu don't care anymore.

The only thing yeu can fear is something yeu don't understand, but I figure, by the time I get to the point where I have to face the infinite, I won't be around to consider the alternatives anymore so it's kind of pointless now isn't it to worry about the whole thing huh?

In any case, most people are just scared, of one thing or another. Of the unknown, or not being able to do whotever, but they're scared of things they can't control. It's a waste of resources, spend yeur life working on the things yeu CAN control. Extend yeur life if yeu can if it's feasable, but don't panic over it. If yeu die, yeu die, yes it sucks but yeu're not around to care so stop worrying about it. If yeu worry, all yeu'll have done is wasted the time yeu did have, and were so busy worrying yeu probably missed out on a great number of opportunities that could've helped yeu out in other ways.

So yeah... death MAY be bad, or it MAY not, either way, the point is moot and irrelevant. Yeu will not be there to see it so yeu really shouldn't concern yeurself with it right now.

Yeu!!!
 

NewEra

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So yeah... death MAY be bad, or it MAY not, either way, the point is moot and irrelevant. Yeu will not be there to see it so yeu really shouldn't concern yeurself with it right now.

Good analysis, but are you purposely saying 'yeu' for 'you' ??
 

Xander

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Difference is, when I go to sleep, I expect to wake up. Death is something which cannot be predicted as far as time, place, cause, etc. goes. When you sleep, you're still existing, still breathing.

If there is nothing after death, then life really is a gift.
I think the point is well underlined by Katsuni. At the point of losing consciousness you cease to exist to yourself to all intents and purposes. Why then do people fear death but not sleep?

As for life being a gift, I fail to see why. Life is what it is, any attached value to it is both personal and transient.
I always saw funerals as being pointless since the dead is no longer able to see or partake in any "celebration." But I suppose I understand such ritual to exist in order to offer the dead's family and friends some sort of time together to try and get closure.
The thing that got me hardest was my mother's funeral. I kinda figured that as she was always very distressed if I was upset then it would be a bit of a slap in the face to get upset at her funeral... so I smiled... most of the time.
1.) I suppose the immediate reason for most people is that they think in terms of words rather than concepts, and the definition of hopelessness is "without hope." Philosophically, its because the only conceivable alternate state to having hope or not having hope is to exist completely in the moment without anticipation for future events and possibilities, a state of being which is contrary (except for brief periods) to civilization itself.
A sound point and a good reason to try to get people off this quick fix defined world they've built.
2.) and 3.) The reason that organized religious doctrines are so popular is that there is no rational reason to believe in an afterlife or other supernatural concepts, leading to repeated doubts and overall lack of confidence concerning one's "faith" without the social and (most importantly) mental habituation that organized religion provides. To put it bluntly, religion enables people to brainwash themselves into believing what they need to believe in order to enjoy life without the fear of death which led them to embrace some "faith" in supernatural concepts in the first place. In short, for most believers religion/faith is a means of overcoming preoccupation with the fear of death, rather than the cause of it. In the interest of utilitarianism (if not necessarily the hedonistic preferences of the minority of people who seem to be happier without religious beliefs), it would be better to reform organized religion (which for the most part has already taken place in developed Christian and Buddhist countries) rather than attempt to purge it from society.

Edit: in case there is any misunderstanding, my use of the word "hedonism" is meant solely to distinguish between personal utility and aggregate utility, not as an endorsement of any particular concept of morality.
I think you're a little harsh on religion (okay so now I feel like a hypocrite), it's not the organised rules that is the reason to keep such institutions but rather the sense of community. Some may criticise their rules and say that they are confrontational and exclusive but I've yet to see a group who could not be charged with such.
Good analysis, but are you purposely saying 'yeu' for 'you' ??
I second that totally. Yew, I could have understood but yeu are just confusing!
 

Nyx

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Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

The problem is not being conscious. Of not having awareness. Of losing for eternity that which is "you". It is about all of this amazing journey that is life ending. Nothing. For eternity. People hope for ultimate understanding after death, for consciousness to continue in some form. On a basic level it is the fear of the unknown. Fear.
I have accepted the fact it will happen so I go about my business as usual. I mean things will happen, but certainly I will die. Who knows what will happen afterwards...I find this hard to grapple with it times. Think about it like this. From the moment you are born you are dying. You were born to die. It is the biggest event in life...the end. Ah! The beautiful paradox/duality that is life and everything.

Myself, I am spiritual in the sense of trying to attain as much understanding of life as it is for me in my space in reality. This satisfies me and I will continue to search. I personally think the purpose for life is simply to understand and be at peace with that understanding. Look to the Major Arcana's symbolism in the Tarot. These cards were not made for divinatory uses by charlatans. They are more of a meditative tool using symbolism to help you understand life's journey. You start off the Fool, the number 0, (which represents the egg, all things come from it) You have a fall from grace (all major religions have this primordial fall) and spend your life (or lives) journey of attaining ultimate understanding, number 21, The World. All of the 22 cards are steps on this journey. Which brings you full circle. You can live with the attitude of the Fool (carefree, embracing all of life) with the knowledge of The World(complete understand and acceptance of everything). So you are neither a Fool or a slave to your Knowledge. You are whole.

a picture of all the cards in order:

http://z.hubpages.com/u/249397_f496.jpg

In the end if my dedication to spiritual enlightenment pays off, great, bring on hyperconsciouness! If I'm deluded about this and searching in vain...I'm dead so I will not know the difference.
 

Xander

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The problem is not being conscious. Of not having awareness. Of losing for eternity that which is "you". It is about all of this amazing journey that is life ending. Nothing. For eternity. People hope for ultimate understanding after death, for consciousness to continue in some form. On a basic level it is the fear of the unknown. Fear.
I have accepted the fact it will happen so I go about my business as usual. I mean things will happen, but certainly I will die. Who knows what will happen afterwards...I find this hard to grapple with it times. Think about it like this. From the moment you are born you are dying. You were born to die. It is the biggest event in life...the end. Ah! The beautiful paradox/duality that is life and everything.

Myself, I am spiritual in the sense of trying to attain as much understanding of life as it is for me in my space in reality. This satisfies me and I will continue to search. I personally think the purpose for life is simply to understand and be at peace with that understanding. Look to the Major Arcana's symbolism in the Tarot. These cards were not made for divinatory uses by charlatans. They are more of a meditative tool using symbolism to help you understand life's journey. You start off the Fool, the number 0, (which represents the egg, all things come from it) You have a fall from grace (all major religions have this primordial fall) and spend your life (or lives) journey of attaining ultimate understanding, number 21, The World. All of the 22 cards are steps on this journey. Which brings you full circle. You can live with the attitude of the Fool (carefree, embracing all of life) with the knowledge of The World(complete understand and acceptance of everything). So you are neither a Fool or a slave to your Knowledge. You are whole.

a picture of all the cards in order:

http://z.hubpages.com/u/249397_f496.jpg

In the end if my dedication to spiritual enlightenment pays off, great, bring on hyperconsciouness! If I'm deluded about this and searching in vain...I'm dead so I will not know the difference.
So to pollute your continuing journey towards objective truth (odd that an F is going hell for leather for that... you'd do well with INTPs ) with a continuous fear of the end and of what happens next is unnecessary and undesirable no?
 

alcea rosea

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I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

How can you be sure that nothing happens?

I mean, we don't know, so anything can basically happen.

There are lots of stories what could happen, the heaven and hell, rebirth, who knows what?

So, we can also ask the question: What if something happens at the same time than we ask the question what if nothing happens?
 

Xander

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How can you be sure that nothing happens?

I mean, we don't know, so anything can basically happen.

There are lots of stories what could happen, the heaven and hell, rebirth, who knows what?

So, we can also ask the question: What if something happens at the same time than we ask the question what if nothing happens?
The real issue is, why is what happens afterwards so important to what happens before?
 

Xander

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It isn't... unless there IS a God... and He is who He says He is.
Sorry I have to take the agnostic point of view here. If you require someone to threaten you with pain and torment to be nice then are you not just playing?

If someone gives me one hundred pounds then I will judge them to be generous (if I were the kind of person to put full stops in sentences).
If someone gives me one hundred pounds whilst I am holding a loaded gun to their head, I would probably not think them generous despite their kind donation.

I don't see religion as a defence against being accused for lingering on what happens next. Even if He is who He is supposed to be it doesn't mean He conforms to the rules mandated by some mortal church. If He is all powerful then He does not need anyone's permission to change the rules. Similarly He is perfectly entitled to cease bothering with afterlifes and such. I think everyone is entitled to wake up some days and think "stuff it, I can't be bothered with work today".

Seriously though, I tend to find that those who DO believe in there being something more than a sudden stop to be even more concerned with eeking out every second of their existence in a constant state of paranoia about what happens next. The only one's who don't seem to be skydivers and urban freestylers...
Bob "This is fun"
Stu "What happens if you hit the ground Bob?"
Bob "I stop having fun"
Stu "Doesn't that worry you?"
Bob "Nope. Either way I ain't gonna be bored!!!"
 

Nyx

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So to pollute your continuing journey towards objective truth (odd that an F is going hell for leather for that... you'd do well with INTPs ) with a continuous fear of the end and of what happens next is unnecessary and undesirable no?

Exactly. I am being honest with my self that my whole goal here in my individual space of time was to come to understand (in all ways: scientifically,anthropologically, psychologically, spiritually, artistically, phliosophically...etc) and be at peace with it all. Purely individual. That fear is silly, it's going to happen so obviously make the most out of what gives you satisfaction. Knowledge/understanding is equivalent to water for me. Sometimes I get frustrated when this isn't other people's goals (S types, sorry)... it's the only thing that makes sense!

Funny you should mention INTPs...for the longest time I thought I was an INTP because out of all the Myers Briggs types besides INFJ, I indetify with INTPs the most. I think it's because my functions are NiTiFe=FiNe etc... I feel very deeply and emotions are tied into most things I do, but the Ti always takes precedence the majority of the time. I am very good with people insofar as understanding/relating and being amiable. I am also quite concerned with the state of world as it relates to humanity and it greatly affects me at times. When I use my Fe it's more in regards to how I construct my world view, kind of a means to an end. I am not really sure if it makes sense to be between INTP and INFJ... aah it's all so confusing...
 

wildcat

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Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?
I read this book a while ago. It was in the local library.
The author had a typical Swedish name, Johansson or Johansen or something.
It was a biography.
I like biographies, especially when they are written by intelligent autists.

It was about her childhood in a big farm, and her school years.
It was actually a priesthouse, with a garden and adjacent lands.
That is the way of the Swedish priesthouses, they are big farms. Lots and lots of land.

Her father was not a priest, he was not a religious man at all. He had rented the farm.
There was a host of farm hands.
They hated her of course, but they could not bully her much, because her father was the boss.

She told in her book what happens after dying.
It was all clear to her, most of the time she was out of her body anyway.
I can understand that, her being an autist and all. It is not exactly a paradise situation on earth.
The other people can get quite nasty, you know.

When people die there is the funeral. The people are all weepy and in grey or black and they flock around the coffin.
She said the dead do not care about the coffin or the corpse or about the weeping grey flock. They have other company.

Her description about the autist experience was true to the prick so she would have lied about the other things?

What other things? The autist experience does not include any other things.
That is exactly why they call it the autist experience in the first place.

Does oneself survive death?
How much more wrong it is possible to put a question?

Does oneself survive life? That is the question.
Apparently not.
 

alcea rosea

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The real issue is, why is what happens afterwards so important to what happens before?

Maybe because people are interested about the unknown?
Maybe because they want some certainity that what happens when dying?
Maybe because it's very difficult to accept that it is possible that this life is all we have and after it's gone there is no me anymore. I disappear?
Maybe not knowing is the hardest part, whatever happens after, but still not knowing what that is if it's anything?
 
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