Death: What's the problem?

[Xander]

Yes but I am also what I am to myself, and that ends at death, thus I become only what I am to you and others who remember me, so although that partially happens when I leave your side physically it is only partial but it is complete once I'm dead.

Complete only in the sense that there will be no more chapters from the original hand. The memories still "live".

Also even if you don't believe in judgment but just an afterlife still it effects people, remember the conversation in the lord of the rings between Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith? About what happens when you die and Pippin concludes "that doesn't sounds so bad"? IT meant they behaved differently, instead of running like mad to find someway out they were able to face the challenge ahead of them. Being J may help with all that though...

I wasn't going to tackle that but seeing as it's a recurring thought train... this afterlife malarky. Even if you never age, never know anything but your ideal of everything then it's either
A- A drug haven where none interact as each person's view of perfect would then impact on other's and hence bring the whole thing down.
or
B- Going to get very, very, very boring at some point.

It's kinda odd but even given the choice between oblivion and such nirivana I'm still not so sure I'd jump away from oblivion quite as fast as I'm supposed to.

 

[Dom]

I'm happy for you!

Not as happy as I am!!!

I wasn't going to tackle that but seeing as it's a recurring thought train... this afterlife malarky. Even if you never age, never know anything but your ideal of everything then it's either
A- A drug haven where none interact as each person's view of perfect would then impact on other's and hence bring the whole thing down.
or
B- Going to get very, very, very boring at some point.

It's kinda odd but even given the choice between oblivion and such nirivana I'm still not so sure I'd jump away from oblivion quite as fast as I'm supposed to.

Ah but now you are changing the question, from "is there an afterlife?" to "what must/should that after life be like?"

AS for a choice between certain oblivion and uncertain eternity, I'm sorry I think I'd pick eternity. I'd think about it some though!

 

[Xander]

Ah but now you are changing the question, from "is there an afterlife?" to "what must/should that after life be like?"

More like questioning the philosophy behind the theories that created the idea of an afterlife.

AS for a choice between certain oblivion and uncertain eternity, I'm sorry I think I'd pick eternity. I'd think about it some though!

I think I would too but I'm not so sure I could find enough to fill an eternity. Just imagining the whole learning process and then waiting for people to catch up so you can see the whole thing in completion would be a pain... assuming the whole looking down from a cloud works.. of course if you can just go create whatever you like then that would be different.

 

[NewEra]

Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

The problem is not existing anymore. The lack of existing, and just not existing for eternity. But I think there might be something else out there, after death. I really think there might be. The soul is separated from the body.

 

[Xander]

The problem is not existing anymore. The lack of existing, and just not existing for eternity. But I think there might be something else out there, after death. I really think there might be. The soul is separated from the body.

Where are you when you're asleep? Do you panic when you feel tired? Are you afraid of falling asleep? If not then what's the deal with death? No, really.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Are you afraid of falling asleep? If not then what's the deal with death? No, really.

When one falls asleep, the expectation is that one will wake up. At worst, sleep is a transitory inconvenience that temporarily suspends your consciousness, not a permanent state of non-existence of your "self". Death is the ultimate limitation of hope and possibilities, not a temporary blackout. I really don't see how this distinction is less than obvious. As for pre-birth/conception, your consciousness doesn't exist, so there is no "self" to be tormented by the limitation/loss of hope which death represents. People fear death/oblivion because of its impact on their conscious lives, not for the state of non-being itself.

 

[Xander]

When one falls asleep, the expectation is that one will wake up. At worst, sleep is a transitory inconvenience that temporarily suspends your consciousness, not a permanent state of non-existence of your "self". Death is the ultimate limitation of hope and possibilities, not a temporary blackout. I really don't see how this distinction is less than obvious. As for pre-birth/conception, your consciousness doesn't exist, so there is no "self" to be tormented by the limitation/loss of hope which death represents. People fear death/oblivion because of its impact on their conscious lives, not for the state of non-being itself.

The point being is that the future does not exist. The only thing that seems to scare people about death is that it's the ultimate "oh you're too late to do that" and because they're supposed to. In my opinion that's lame.

 

[lowtech redneck]

The point being is that the future does not exist. The only thing that seems to scare people about death is that it's the ultimate "oh you're too late to do that" and because they're supposed to. In my opinion that's lame.

And in my opinion to live without anticipation for the future is to live without hope, which I think is lame.

If the future doesn't exist, why work or save for retirement? Why strive to better your lot at all? Humans have to live in anticipation (i.e. hope) for a better future than the present in order to derive any utility beyond the moment in question, and to get through transitory misery.

Besides, my curiosity concerning the future is boundless

 

[Fluffywolf]

I am glad many people believe in afterlife. I don't believe in afterlife myself, but I know plenty of people that would go rogue on society should they believe the same as me.

It's good that some people believe they will be judged at the end of their life.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I am glad many people believe in afterlife. I don't believe in afterlife myself, but I know plenty of people that would go rogue on society should they believe the same as me.

It's good that some people believe they will be judged at the end of their life.

I actually think such people are generally balanced out by those who would utilize religion (however sincerely) to bring pain upon others. My general support for the existence of religion, despite my agnosticism, has more to do with the subjective utility of individuals rather than the direct impact of religious beliefs on society.

 

[Stariana]

Puts me in mind of the [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0xKPv9jDY"]Atheist Sneeze.[/YOUTUBE]

When you die, nothing happens.

I think that the belief of an afterlife is based on the belief that everything is continuous: there was no beginning, and there is no end. The universe goes on and on. That the soul cannot die. Etc. I believe that a soul can be killed, but it doesn't necessarily die with the body. The body is just a shell for the soul.

I don't think I'm wrong on this, but then who DOES think they're wrong about their beliefs? The most you can hope for is someone who is big enough to allow for the possibility that they COULD be wrong. In my years of contact with Christians (Southern Baptist, the worst kind of Baptist), who believed nothing but what the Bible says and allowed no room for anything else, I was completely blown away when my (Christian) therapist said, "...that's what I believe. But hey, I could be wrong."

It doesn't really matter what you believe in, just as long as you believe in something. Allow for the possibility of being wrong. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs under two conditions: you don't go around shoving it down people's throats and it doesn't harm someone. If it does either, expect to be fought.

 

[Xander]

And in my opinion to live without anticipation for the future is to live without hope, which I think is lame.

If the future doesn't exist, why work or save for retirement? Why strive to better your lot at all? Humans have to live in anticipation (i.e. hope) for a better future than the present in order to derive any utility beyond the moment in question, and to get through transitory misery.

Besides, my curiosity concerning the future is boundless

But why associate the loss of hope with hopelessness? People don't seem too bothered about thinking about whether they will wake up in the morning or not, they just expect to and yet extremely few people (Buddhists included, which is odd in my book) seem to have the same level of nonchalance about death. Like it's different or something.

Unconscious is unconscious. In neither form do you have control over whether you wake up so what's the big issue? I can only conclude it's due to being told it's a big bad scary boogerman.

I am glad many people believe in afterlife. I don't believe in afterlife myself, but I know plenty of people that would go rogue on society should they believe the same as me.

It's good that some people believe they will be judged at the end of their life.

Hmm.. don't you find it concerning that people only behave because they'll be smote if they don't? I mean you've got to have a pretty nasty side to require eternal damnation to keep you in check no?

I actually think such people are generally balanced out by those who would utilize religion (however sincerely) to bring pain upon others. My general support for the existence of religion, despite my agnosticism, has more to do with the subjective utility of individuals rather than the direct impact of religious beliefs on society.

I personally find faith a wonderful thing but religion an organisation worthy of purging from our society for it's habitually abusive behaviour.

I think that the belief of an afterlife is based on the belief that everything is continuous: there was no beginning, and there is no end. The universe goes on and on. That the soul cannot die. Etc. I believe that a soul can be killed, but it doesn't necessarily die with the body. The body is just a shell for the soul.

I don't think I'm wrong on this, but then who DOES think they're wrong about their beliefs? The most you can hope for is someone who is big enough to allow for the possibility that they COULD be wrong. In my years of contact with Christians (Southern Baptist, the worst kind of Baptist), who believed nothing but what the Bible says and allowed no room for anything else, I was completely blown away when my (Christian) therapist said, "...that's what I believe. But hey, I could be wrong."

It doesn't really matter what you believe in, just as long as you believe in something. Allow for the possibility of being wrong. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs under two conditions: you don't go around shoving it down people's throats and it doesn't harm someone. If it does either, expect to be fought.

Exactly.

Believe in an after life if you wish, personally I really do hope to see my mother again, but don't have it define your existance to the point where you become irrational defending your belief to deny the fear of "what if I'm wrong?!?!?!".

Well said.

My point basically was to wonder why people worry about the end for the duration of the journey. It's like living death with some people. To my mind the end cannot come quickly enough for them. At least that way they won't have to worry about it all the time.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I actually think such people are generally balanced out by those who would utilize religion (however sincerely) to bring pain upon others. My general support for the existence of religion, despite my agnosticism, has more to do with the subjective utility of individuals rather than the direct impact of religious beliefs on society.

Yeah, there's that too. Hard to say it balances out though. The type that utilizes religion to do harm are easily spotted. The type that uses religion to keep themselves in check might not be so easily spotted.

Hmm.. don't you find it concerning that people only behave because they'll be smote if they don't? I mean you've got to have a pretty nasty side to require eternal damnation to keep you in check no?

People can have all kinds of reasons for doing the things they do. Which reasons are right and wrong are just subjective interpretations. Wether you believe you need to be good to stave of eternal damnation, or because your parents taught you, because you find it the best way to get positive feedback or you just believe in it just because. It doesn't really matter much to me how people think about such things. The only thing that should ever be judged is the acts people do. Not the thoughts they have.

 

[Xander]

People can have all kinds of reasons for doing the things they do. Which reasons are right and wrong are just subjective interpretations. Wether you believe you need to be good to stave of eternal damnation, or because your parents taught you, because you find it the best way to get positive feedback or you just believe in it just because. It doesn't really matter much to me how people think about such things. The only thing that should ever be judged is the acts people do. Not the thoughts they have.

To not care about the why is to disregard the circumstance and remove all moderation from rule and law. Are you sure you don't care about motivation?

 

[erm]

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

The only problem I see are the low odds of it being true. Like any other religious belief. At least, the ones that actually say something tangible about the world.

Why people usually have a problem with death? Survival instinct, I guess. Not just for themselves, but other people, and the ideals and goals they are striving for. It's like hedonism, essentially; That life is good, and it's bad when good things end.

It's like playing an awesome computer game, with an unknown time limit. Man that would piss me off.

 

[Xander]

The only problem I see are the low odds of it being true. Like any other religious belief. At least, the ones that actually say something tangible about the world.

Why people usually have a problem with death? Survival instinct, I guess. Not just for themselves, but other people, and the ideals and goals they are striving for. It's like hedonism, essentially; That life is good, and it's bad when good things end.

It's like playing an awesome computer game, with an unknown time limit. Man that would piss me off.

You never finished a book and thought "that sucks.. I want more!!!".

The survival instinct is one thing but to let that put life on hold whilst you worry about it? That's just self defeating!

 

[Fluffywolf]

To not care about the why is to disregard the circumstance and remove all moderation from rule and law. Are you sure you don't care about motivation?

I'm not overly concerned about motivation, as long as the means and the ends are clear to me. I don't see it my task to turn everyone around me in Fluffywolf bots.

But you're right that it's bad to remove all moderation from rule and law.

Someone with shaky reasoning that does good is no problem. Someone with shaky reason that does bad needs to be moderated.

 

[Xander]

I'm not overly concerned about motivation, as long as the means and the ends are clear to me. I don't see it my task to turn everyone around me in Fluffywolf bots.

But you're right that it's bad to remove all moderation from rule and law.

Someone with shaky reasoning that does good is no problem. Someone with shaky reason that does bad needs to be moderated.

Supporting the individual is the whole idea... it's just this definition thing. I wouldn't have a problem if it weren't so widespread and accepted. I'd just like to make an impact sometimes and actually get people to think free from the constraints laid out by history and what that really clever guy over there said.

 

[INTJ123]

we are just living continuations of scientific Adam and Eve, I don't think humans have experienced true death, extinction.

 

[Frank]

Supporting the individual is the whole idea... it's just this definition thing. I wouldn't have a problem if it weren't so widespread and accepted. I'd just like to make an impact sometimes and actually get people to think free from the constraints laid out by history and what that really clever guy over there said.

But then you would just be the really clever guy over here who said something people believed. Truth is, none of it is provable so people are just going to go with what works for them.