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Unforgivable Sins

Anja

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Good point, Bluebell, about anger being the first step in getting in touch with what needs to be healed. Some people get stuck at this level and are never able to progress. We see them everywhere. The people who are ranting in the bus station. (Usually has to do with something that happened to them years ago. Somebody comes by and does something irritating and that old trigger is pulled once again. Hooked in by hatred.)

Or the person who DOES kick his dog because his wife did something that made him angry.

That initial stage of recognition that one is angry is very much like kindergarden, I think, Mlittrell. It comes from our most primitive impulses - fight or flight. A human at his most crude stage of development.

Fortunately we are not animals and so people, who have knowledge about change and harmony and social concerns, learn that there are other options. They're ones that keep us from walking into situations where we will act like an animal and, in turn, be treated like one. Locked up in prison, for instance.


Although it's a matter of courtesy, social order and intelligent connection that's not what it is about. I see it as a matter of commmon sense and self-preservation to learn to act in public in ways that work to our ultimate growth and benefit.
 

mlittrell

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That initial stage of recognition that one is angry is very much like kindergarden, I think, Mlittrell. It comes from our most primitive impulses - fight or flight. A human at his most crude stage of development.
it was an example.

now my last post was made in a half conscious state lol let me rephrase. when it comes to little things like your friend lies to you for example, you dont plot revenge, you forgive him but stay on your guard or handle it however you may. lets say its something like murder or rape, in that circumstance i would never expect anyone to forgive and forget lol...thats a bit much. can it be done, yes. you can forgive in any circumstance if your values so let you. basically, don't sweat the small things. basically what i dont understand is an eye for an eye on a small interpersonal level. this is my opinion though, take it with a grain of salt as most people do lol.
 

Anja

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Yes, I saw your example, Mlitrell!

And you raised an interesting speculation. What is it that compels some people to seek revenge for the small stuff?
 

Anja

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Oopsie. I'm wondering if whatever is still with us. Think I've turned a corner from the initial question. . .

I'll try to make a connection.

What are the reasons why forgiveness is so difficult? Will that work?
 

mlittrell

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my immediate answer to that question would be that people that do such things do not have a grasp on how to deal with emotions. if i thought more on it (and i will) im sure i could come up with 100 different reasons.

*Disclaimer* Extreme Generalization below:

I could see an INTJ or any NT for that matter that had a lack of emotional intelligence going for the "every action has an equal but opposite reaction" meaning if they hurt me then i must hurt them equally. like i said, generalization. screw the grain of salt on this one lol.
 

Anja

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Okay. I see that.

It made me think of an angry parent saying, "I'm going to teach that kid a lesson." He hits the child. The child does learn a lesson. . .
 

Anja

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Still thinking.

Keeping an "equal balance?" Justification. . .
 

Anja

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Maybe I'm not there. Heh.

Maybe the question is "DOES forgiveness make a difference?"

Looks like I need some help from a Thinker?
 

disregard

mrs
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Yes, I saw your example, Mlitrell!

And you raised an interesting speculation. What is it that compels some people to seek revenge for the small stuff?

Attachment to the ego + insecurity.

How dare you hurt or belittle me? No one does that to ME. You will pay for making me feel powerless. I'll show you how powerful I am.
 

disregard

mrs
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Well, no one wants to feel powerless.

But instead of finding power within (recognising your worth and believing in your abilities, regardless of what Joe Schmo thinks), these people grasp for power outside themselves (showing Joe Schmo that he's wrong by force/punishment/revenge, which gives value to his opinion).
 

Anja

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Well, no one wants to feel powerless.

Too true. Don'tcha hate that feeling - like being little again?

Maybe that's where that Gandhi statment comes in. Rethinking what we have been culturally taught. Rethinking weakness.

Who is stronger? The man who chooses to live in peaceful coexistence or the man who chooses to destroy out of his will run riot and ends up being restrained by society?

When Johnny Cash started his recovery from his drug addiction he had to face this paradox of surrender being a strength.

He said something to the effect that all the tough dudes he'd been using with thought he was a wimp but he saw that they were going down while he was standing strong.
 
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Siúil a Rúin

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I especially appreciate bluebell and heart's comments. There is a personal aspect of this topic in which one person's experience with coming to terms with violation is not comparable to another's, so the definition of the process is variable.

The individual I could reasonably hate has lived a marvelously successful life financially and in obtaining professional power. I had to reexamine my sense of inner resolution when I came across information from which I could extrapolate based on experience that he has ruined many lives over the years and does not outwardly appear to be accountable in any way. His inner desires are sadistic, but he knows when and how to vent them without getting caught. He focuses his cruelty on people who are too vulnerable to have the credibility needed to take him down. I started to feel rage when encountering recent information, but realized that rage was making me more like him. He has a history of cause and effect that at least in part produced who he is. The role of self will and choice is difficult to measure or understand. I attempt to be what he is not and to be courageous because of the fear he initially instilled in me. Those things he sees as weakness have become my source of inner strength. I have an idea that I am stronger inside than he could even imagine being for himself. It is a continual process and not one that is nicely packaged up and never revisited. I don't wish him punished in a gratuitous sense, but would stop him from creating more suffering if given the opportunity. There are scenarios where I would show him mercy because it is my strength, but would not do so if it allowed for more suffering from his hands. My sense of forgiveness is not the fluffy sort that makes a nice caption on a poster with a kitten picture. It's more pragmatic and reasoned. It delineates between what I can and cannot control. My own reactions are the limit of my domain. It has to do with taking whatever advantages and setbacks life has offered me and attempting to build from those the best structure for my life that I can. I try to figure out what type of person I would like to be and then use the negatives and positives both as tools to build that sort of character with my choices.
 

Anja

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I was thinking something similar when I thought about Gandi's statement, toonia. It's like taking lemons and turning them into lemonade!
 

millerm277

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Personally, I try to work off of the "Always forgive, never forget" line of thinking, unless it's something like murdering my family or the like. (In which case, you will be next seen at the bottom of a lake.)

Not moving on from a dispute, or seeking revenge over things is a waste of time and energy. Better to continue normally, but remember what they did so if it comes up again, you can avoid the problem entirely.
 

mlittrell

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the point of that ghandi statement was that anyone can (in his case) pick up a weapon and kill but not everyone can forgive. and does forgiveness make a difference. i would think so, depending on the situation of course. i think that justice can still be served and you can still forgive also. then its justice not for the sake of "hurting because he hurt me" but it is for the persons own good (so that they learn a lesson and such).
 

INA

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It is not a given that anyone can pick up a weapon and kill. Forgiving on average requires considerably less effort. It is also hogwash to think that offenders simply needs to learn a lesson and justice is or should be for their benefit. For all the vaunted understanding of humanity that many profess to have it never ceases to amaze me that there is a drive to block out the less-than-fluffy aggressive (and yes, murderous) drives that make us human. I for one have no use for a neutered humanity.
 

Anja

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It is not a given that anyone can pick up a weapon and kill. Forgiving on average requires considerably less effort. It is also hogwash to think that offenders simply needs to learn a lesson and justice is or should be for their benefit. For all the vaunted understanding of humanity that many profess to have it never ceases to amaze me that there is a drive to block out the less-than-fluffy aggressive (and yes, murderous) drives that make us human. I for one have no use for a neutered humanity.



If I were to apply that idea to myself I'd have to word it this way: It's easier to take up a weapon and kill someone than it is to go to the ego-battering work it takes to say, "I forgive you." and truly feel and mean it.
 
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