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Unforgivable Sins

The Ü™

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lol i figured that quote would piss some people off. he might be dead but he did a crapload for india and didn't raise a single fist/weapon. like it or not, anything can be forgiven. that doesn't mean not punish though.

If you punish, it kind of contradicts the idea of forgiveness.

Punishment is merely, yes, a word that people fuse with rationalizing revenge.
 

Lucifer

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[*crying* walks on stage]
"I would like to thank Anja for creating such a beautiful and extremely important award","I would also like to thank God for creating sins that I believe are unforgivible, because without that, this would be impossible."
[Music comes on]
"Finally I would like to thank myself for being able to attain this award, thank you all, I love you!"
[Exits to loud applause and girls fainting]
 

Anja

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[*crying* walks on stage]
"I would like to thank Anja for creating such a beautiful and extremely important award","I would also like to thank God for creating sins that I believe are unforgivible, because without that, this would be impossible."
[Music comes on]
"Finally I would like to thank myself for being able to attain this award, thank you all, I love you!"
[Exits to loud applause and girls fainting]

:laugh:

(No need to wait to own the world, Guy. You've already got it. Have fun. I'll watch.)
 

Anja

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Glad to see you've got a sense of humor. . .

There's hope yet!
 

heart

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The truth of the matter is that the initial reaction you have is what you should stand by (except for obvious exceptions: find out later (s)he didn`t do something). Your initial reaction represents you, when you overthink such a thing you are in fact breaking down who you are to make exceptions for who you are. Forgiveness is the ultimate surrender of who you are, it is accepting something that you don`t believe and have convinced yourself is ok. Don`t forgive, don`t regret and don`t forget who you really are.

I agree that feeling truth is more important than feeling forgiveness. If one has not come to true forgiveness than it is better to be inwardly honest than to force something that the time is not right for. Forgiveness cannot be forced. Truth is more important.

Hurt is often so damaging not because we carry it around, but because we carry it around and don't process it and only feel the tip of the thorn, the rest inside and festering. It is more important I think to examine the why, how much, how deep what caused it of hurt than forcing forgiveness just for the sake of forgiveness. Forgiveness may be a end result of the process of tracing down hurt and seeing it as it truly is or it may not.
 

The Ü™

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Yeah, I dwell on my pain until I can find closure and be just as destructive in return. That will ease the pain.

Like if someone lies to me and rejects me then later has a change of heart, I might believe that this person actually did change his heart, but it still doesn't change the fact that s(he) was the cause of my pain and suffering. Hence, I will only make him/her think s(he) is secure and in my good graces again. To me, that is the best way to plot my revenge -- when one least expects it. Perhaps I could be so destructive that it could lead that person to become suicidal.

That accomplishes more than forgiveness. Forgiveness turns you into a doormat. I'm more in favor of making others pay.
 

Lucifer

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I agree that feeling truth is more important than feeling forgiveness. If one has not come to true forgiveness than it is better to be inwardly honest than to force something that the time is not right for. Forgiveness cannot be forced. Truth is more important.

Hurt is often so damaging not because we carry it around, but because we carry it around and don't process it and only feel the tip of the thorn, the rest inside and festering. It is more important I think to examine the why, how much, how deep what caused it of hurt than forcing forgiveness just for the sake of forgiveness. Forgiveness may be a end result of the process of tracing down hurt and seeing it as it truly is or it may not.

That is alot of feelings. It is an interesting idea to look at the reason of it and is a very sensitive approach. My feelings are about as deep as a piece of paper and it is hard to actually relate to your proposton but it is still a very compelling thought for those who do tend to feel things more innately.

Also Heart is a good band, and I like your picture.
 

heart

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That is alot of feelings. It is an interesting idea to look at the reason of it and is a very sensitive approach. My feelings are about as deep as a piece of paper and it is hard to actually relate to your proposton but it is still a very compelling thought for those who do tend to feel things more innately.

Also Heart is a good band, and I like your picture.

I was just sounding off about the "need to forgive" that is always being pushed in our culture. Wasn't really directing my comments towards you.
 

Lucifer

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I was just sounding off about the "need to forgive" that is always being pushed in our culture. Wasn't really directing my comments towards you.

I understood that, I wanted to respond to your comment because you were quoting something I said. And my response was simply explaining that I cannot symathize with everything you said.
 

heart

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There is something akin to a type of soul murder to forgive when the time is not ripe and forgiveness is not warranted.
 

mlittrell

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you can forgive yet still punish. if you punish and dont forgive its punishment just to get back at someone, not for their own good. if you forgive then punish, it seems to be more for their own good. there aren't any hard feelings i suppose you could say.
Like if someone lies to me and rejects me then later has a change of heart, I might believe that this person actually did change his heart, but it still doesn't change the fact that s(he) was the cause of my pain and suffering. Hence, I will only make him/her think s(he) is secure and in my good graces again. To me, that is the best way to plot my revenge -- when one least expects it. Perhaps I could be so destructive that it could lead that person to become suicidal.
does this really make you feel better? does it do any good at all? just curious. this way of thinking fascinates me.

That accomplishes more than forgiveness. Forgiveness turns you into a doormat.
I beg to differ.
 

The Ü™

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you can forgive yet still punish. if you punish and dont forgive its punishment just to get back at someone, not for their own good. if you forgive then punish, it seems to be more for their own good. there aren't any hard feelings i suppose you could say.

How is punishment for one's own good?

Anyway, I'm not concerned for a person's own good. I'm concerned with watching them suffer.

does this really make you feel better? does it do any good at all? just curious. this way of thinking fascinates me.

As I may have mentioned here, as well, it brings closure, and it's a logical response.

If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?

Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it. And then watching that person suffer is a gratifying release for me. If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.

Forgiveness doesn't make one feel better either. How can it? It doesn't bring back that which was lost.
 

mlittrell

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How is punishment for one's own good?
So you learn to not do it again lol. Basic parenting skills.
If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?
No.
Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it.
Instead of taking it like a man.
If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.
Nice way to create enemies.
It doesn't bring back that which was lost.
And neither does revenge. So why take away. Then everybody ends up with less of what they once had and more anger and hatred for each other in return.

Revenge reminds me of kindergarteners that don't know how to handle their emotion so they just beat up the kid that hurt their feelings because they haven't grown up enough to know how to deal with such matters.

EDIT:

It's just hard for me to understand. I forgive and that makes me feel better and I don't feel like a floor mat. In fact, this attribute has gotten me places in life. It has never hurt me or done anything negative for that matter. That is why it is so interesting hearing your side of it.

EDIT2:

Agreed with comment below. Believe what you may, just please don't have kids lol.
 

DigitalMethod

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How is punishment for one's own good?

Anyway, I'm not concerned for a person's own good. I'm concerned with watching them suffer.



As I may have mentioned here, as well, it brings closure, and it's a logical response.

If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?

Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it. And then watching that person suffer is a gratifying release for me. If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.

Forgiveness doesn't make one feel better either. How can it? It doesn't bring back that which was lost.

Don't have kids please.
 

The Ü™

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Nice way to create enemies.

Haven't you been reading anything I have written?

I would be made into the enemy when the other person pissed me off.

As far as I'm concerned, the other person is the one who made enemies.
 

mlittrell

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if that's the way you want to view things then by all means go for it, but there is no reason to make someone an enemy just because they "pissed you off". they might not have even meant to do so in a malicious manner and they might be perfectly good people but now they are your enemy. this way of thinking seems to be a defense mechanism of sorts that I see from ENTJs quite a bit. my one ENTJ friend was made fun of a lot when he was younger, so now if he gets an ounce of ridicule it hurts him, even if it wasn't directed at him, and he just "hates" the person from then on and they are his enemies. it really just stems from his lack of knowing how to deal with his emotions so he just deals with it on a level he understands, by hating people. recently he has noticed this and is a lot happier now that he learned to forgive people and generally not take things too personally. life's too short to go around pissed off at people and having enemies.
Haven't you been reading anything I have written?
Yes lol. I can read.
 

bluebell

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This is a difficult topic for me, I've been thinking about it for a while now. There are a number of things that I've experienced that I cannot forgive. (I'm not talking about the less severe end of things, such as a friend who hurts your feelings, but more along the lines of crimes that tend to have lengthy jail sentences attached to them)

I think that idea of forgiveness being more for the one doing the forgiving than for the one who committed it is to free one from carrying resentment, rage, all the baggage that goes with not forgiving. That stuff can poison the one who carries it. In that sense then the person "has" you for life, not just one single act.

That's something to aim for, sure, and something I'm working on but IMO getting in touch with the rage/outrage is a necessary step for healing. Not to have your life consumed by it, but more as part of the grieving/healing process and moving on from it.

However, that process is not how I define forgiveness.

But this idea of deciding who and what gets forgiven is foreign to me. If I am not the one hurt I don't know how I can decide what's forgivable and what isn't.

It feels like playing God to me. It's really a personal matter.

Yes. I feel angry when someone implies that I should forgive those who committed those criminal acts against me. It's MY choice whether I choose to forgive or not, and on MY timetable, not theirs.

And to those that couldn't understand forgiveness, To forgive is not to condone. It's a form of understanding, acceptance, breadth of mind.

Yeah, I see it as saying "I'm not going to allow what you did to affect me anymore, I'm shedding it."

Again, that's not my definition of forgiveness. My personal definition of forgiveness is that it can only be experienced if the person who committed the wrong to be fully accountable for what they did (even if it was done while mentally ill or intoxicated) and to face up to what they did and be remorseful, and to make amends as best they can, and work hard at changing so that the wrong will never be committed again.

My partner and I fully live this process in our lives. We have emotionally hurt each other quite badly in the past and this process has allowed us to truly forgive the other for past actions. However, if we hadn't done this at a deep level, I suspect forgiveness would not have been possible and it's likely we would not have stayed together.

I don't think this process would work for me, though, in terms of forgiving the criminal acts against me (some of which occurred when I was very young). I have left the door open for one of the perpetrators to follow this process but I know it is highly unlikely they will ever do this (I no longer have anything to do with this person, but any future contact is contingent on them taking full responsibility for what they did). Two of the others are long dead (cancer and heart attack) and the other is someone who I do not want in my life at all, ever.

For something relatively minor such as a friend inadvertently hurting your feelings, this process is not necessarily essential - I think it is possible to work through the hurt by yourself and choose how you will deal with that, such as continuing the friendship but reducing the trust and openness you put into that friendship for a while then reassessing.

I agree that feeling truth is more important than feeling forgiveness. If one has not come to true forgiveness than it is better to be inwardly honest than to force something that the time is not right for. Forgiveness cannot be forced. Truth is more important.

Hurt is often so damaging not because we carry it around, but because we carry it around and don't process it and only feel the tip of the thorn, the rest inside and festering. It is more important I think to examine the why, how much, how deep what caused it of hurt than forcing forgiveness just for the sake of forgiveness. Forgiveness may be a end result of the process of tracing down hurt and seeing it as it truly is or it may not.

There is something akin to a type of soul murder to forgive when the time is not ripe and forgiveness is not warranted.

These two posts are how I see forgiveness as well.
 

INA

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lol i figured that quote would piss some people off. he might be dead but he did a crapload for india and didn't raise a single fist/weapon.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the truth or falsity of his statement?

like it or not, anything can be forgiven. that doesn't mean not punish though.
Says who? Maybe all is forgivable for you; maybe not for some others.

but there is no reason to make someone an enemy just because they "pissed you off".
As long as the person finds utility in it, there is a reason, whether or not your morality approves it as a good one.
 

mlittrell

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oh im aware. im just being annoyingly idealistic. i just dont see the point in revenge. it seems to lend to someone not knowing how to deal with things. now, i do believe in justice. but on a more interpersonal level i dont understand revenge.

im aware that it is different from person to person. this is just an opinion
 
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