Debate: Worthiness of Love and Depression

[Mole]

Why are you here?

Don't ask me why I am here. Ask the moderator, Geoff, who headhunted me from the site Gifted and Talented.

 

[ceecee]

Why are you here?

Yes, there was a disconnect between Jung and Meyers/Briggs in the development of MBTI. I am aware of that.

Jung, although the subject of some criticism (who isn't subject to criticism?), was a very insightful and well-respected psychiatrist. If you want to argue the scientific validity of MBTI, doing so on an MBTI thread posted by an INFJ about ****DEPRESSION AND WORTHINESS OF LOVE**** is the least logical place to do so unless stirring the pot is your motive. You *know* that intuition is how I process information, yet here you are trying to convince me that I should suddenly not invest any interest in it because it's lacking in a factual concrete nature.

Okay.

I know you're new but stop interacting with him or your head will explode.

 

[Mole]

I know you're new but stop interacting with him or your head will explode.

It's true, Typology Central is littered with exploded heads.

 

[entropie]

It's true, Typology Central is littered with exploded heads.

pretty insulting

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

Some random thoughts:

If you are desperate and/or have negative thoughts about yourself (even if rightfully) then people smell the rotten corpse and avoid you. A newborn baby or a cat doesn't spread that "smell".

If you are strong, confident and don't need others that much then you'll find much more people queuing up for your friendship and love. You become much more "lovable". It is somewhat paradoxical but it is really like that. You get the loan only if you have money and don't need the loan so much.

Learn how to make your own life interesting without depending on a few specific people. Be strong on your own with enough self respect. This self-love thingy is ridiculous. I could never love myself. I hated myself in the past. Today I'm strong and respect myself.

I think you need a different balance, being more lovable and having less desperation/capacity to love others. In my opinion life isn't only about relationships, love and other people. If other parts of your life don't work - or these other parts simply don't exist - then expect serious difficulties in getting the difficult part or "the whole" thing right.

What I mean on less capacity to love others? If you are less desperate than you can be more picky when it comes to spreading your love. As an example: I've learned that quite a lot of people are fake liars, double faced (as an outsider I'm more sensitive to these bad traits) and I can afford to avoid/ignore them.

In my opinion a relationship is much more healthy if you don't have a sick dependency on each other. More than 50% of your happiness should come from other sources than your relationship. It is better for both of you.

I am so glad I started a profile here. You guys are saving me so much money on therapy and also helping me realize that my last relationship simply wasn't as good as I painted it to be in my mind.

A psychologist is a businessman/businesswoman and I doubt it is in his/her best interest to "heal" your bad life. Exposing yourself and being vulnerable in front of a trained highly manipulative person who might have financial interest in keeping you there for long can be worse than asking for the opinion of random impartial strangers and making your own conclusions.

You have to be powerful enough to be able to get out of bad situations otherwise you'll have a bad life. Period.

I hate the word "depression". People often connect it with the need to go to a psychologist, taking medications. I'd suggest you simply have a shitty life that you have to sort out yourself. Be brave and make bold steps to make it better. Even if you aren't in the mood for anything push strong to shake it up a bit - you might open up new possibilities about which you didn't even know before.

You need a lot of bravery to reach your goals in life. This applies not only when it comes to your own ambitions but also when it comes to opening up for someone that is necessary for deep genuine love. Your days in this life are limited. Being a coward, not taking risks and living a long shitty life is worse than dying now. To avoid misunderstanding: I'm not promoting suicide with my previous statement. Think about "living a long shitty life is worse than dying now" before taking a risk that is worth taking. It just makes it easier to achieve big things.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

"Love yourself before loving another."
"Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."
"No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
"Learn how to be alone and like it."
Etc., etc., etc....

I have a strongly adverse reaction to those statements, but it may be difficult for me to explain this. I will try.

It is a natural response to the experience and pain of living to become internally depleted - depressed. Most people have lived tragic lives, have faced great pain and suffering. It is an exceptional situation to not have pain be a defining feature of one's life. So where does this leave people? Lonely, with low self-esteem, depressed, sick. The only way to fill oneself again is to find that source of the infinite, which is found either in choosing to love another creature, or in the comprehension that results from wonder and beauty. One of the best things a lonely, depressed person can do is to save the life of vulnerable animal, or to do something in the world that makes it more beautiful and more loving. If you don't start doing this in the middle of your emptiness, you will never do it. If you can't love when your heart is a cavern of pain, then when will you love? When you feel perfectly in your physical and emotional self? That isn't love, that's being in a good mood. Even the most monstrous human beings can say "have a nice day" to someone when everything is going their way. The only meaningful measure of goodness or love is when it comes from pain and emptiness. This is how love grows inside.

I've seen what the 'good mood' version of love is like, and it runs completely dry the moment it encounters pain. I don't feel social attraction to the extremely confident, the perfect, the proud, and the triumphant. The chances are miniscule that they can comprehend the true nature of the existence of most living beings.

 

[Merced]

Of course you need to learn to love yourself before you love someone else, but I personally don't see that as valid argument to being lonely. I don't love myself romantically. I want someone else to do that. Doesn't mean I don't have self esteem or that I don't love myself, but I want someone to date me and I can't date myself. You can only be alone for so long. As someone who's life goal can be narrowed down to 'find love', I don't appreciate the narrative of "aww she's so helpless and emotional, she isn't capable because she's seeking love". In reality, I am a very capable person who is chasing something that I see as a driving force in my life. This is what motivates me and that's doesn't say any more or less about my self esteem than being motivated by playing sports or earning money.

 

[Mole]

Optimism, Depression, and Tragedy

It's ironic Americans are addicted to optimism and at the same time the largest presenting illness is depression.

Does compulsory American optimism produce the epidemic of depression?

Is depression an unconscious response to optimism?

Is optimism a powerful American trait, or is optimism a national social problem?

Does optimism hide more than it reveals?

Fortunately the antidote to optimism lies in Western culture in the tragic view of life in our beginnings in Ancient Greece, click on https://monoskop.org/images/f/f1/Na...n_Myth_and_tragedy_in_Ancient_Greece_1996.pdf

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It's ironic Americans are addicted to optimism and at the same time the largest presenting illness is depression.

Does compulsory American optimism produce the epidemic of depression?

Is depression an unconscious response to optimism?

Is optimism a powerful American trait, or is optimism a national social problem?

Does optimism hide more than it reveals?

Fortunately the antidote to optimism lies in Western culture in the tragic view of life in our beginnings in Ancient Greece, click on https://monoskop.org/images/f/f1/Na...n_Myth_and_tragedy_in_Ancient_Greece_1996.pdf

Unrealistic expectations can result in disappointment. Is this what you mean by optimism resulting in depression?

Cornel West makes a wonderful assessment of the failure of the romantic assumption of Western society - that belief that we must have it all to be happy. (starting at 7:23 in the video link in the spoiler tag below)

How do you generate an elegance of earned self-togetherness so that you have a stick-to-it-ness in the face of the catastrophic, and the calamitous, and the horrendous, and the scandalous, and the monstrous?…

Time is a gift. Time is a giver. Yes it is a failure, but how good of a failure? Have a sense of the gratitude that you were able to do as much as you did, that you were able to love as much, think as much, and play as much. Why think you needed the whole thing?"

[youtube;xfD3X3f5C_w&t=108s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfD3X3f5C_w&t=108s[/video]

 

[Abendrot]

On a related note, the Danes are some of the happiest people in the world. I hear that their secret is lowered expectations about life resulting from something called the "Law of Jante". What is this law essentially? It is a contempt for individual progress, greatness and success, and a tacitly shared agreement among everyone to comfortably embrace mediocrity together. Is this happiness of theirs worth such a price? I think some things are more important than happiness.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

On a related note, the Danes are some of the happiest people in the world. I hear that their secret is lowered expectations about life resulting from something called the "Law of Jante". What is this law essentially? It is a contempt for individual progress, greatness and success, and a tacitly shared agreement among everyone to comfortably embrace mediocrity together. Is this happiness of theirs worth such a tradeoff? I think some things are more important than happiness.

That's interesting. I find their way of living rather intriguing, personally. When I envision a happy life, I see a loving partner, laughter, intelligent conversation, all the necessities, enough money to travel a bit and actually retire someday, but fairly humble surroundings... no mansion, no fancy sports cars, just a beautiful, comfortable, modest home.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I thought that the research about Denmark was because there was a sense of trust in society. I'll go look for it online, but there was a large-scale study spanning decades and many countries and the only correlation found was between happiness and level of trust in a society. The specifics of financial success and political system were inconsistent in the result implying they are not the root source of happiness. All I know is that I watched a documentary about this research study in a class.

Although I do think that mutual respect for people regardless of social status is not a celebration of mediocrity, but the ability to take pride in any work and a realistic conception of what it means to be human. The pressure to reach potential and be number 1 in order to be valued is a perfect way to destroy potential in many human beings. The conception of a "number 1" is also like chasing a rainbow - it doesn't exist in the natural world in the same way it is conceived of in human competition. I'll debate you on this [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] because I do think that the current conception of success is morally wrong and ineffective to help people reach their full potential. It is the same issue as not being able to force a plant to grow unless you mess with its genetics. You have to allow growth with patience and through natural processes. Unnaturally forcing growth is a form of destruction and often involves one step forward and two steps back. Part of success is even doing menial work with pride and having that be the natural mode of operating.

 

[Abendrot]

That's interesting. I find their way of living rather intriguing, personally. When I envision a happy life, I see a loving partner, laughter, intelligent conversation, all the necessities, enough money to travel a bit and actually retire someday, but fairly humble surroundings... no mansion, no fancy sports cars, just a beautiful, comfortable, modest home.

It sounds like you might like the Danish way of life. I do think there is an allure to it: A peaceful, modest, and comfortable life; it seems like an urban country with a somewhat introverted and rural atmosphere. I certainly plan to visit Denmark some day (Most Danes are fluent in English too). But I wouldn't be able to stay long, as I'd feel suffocated by ennui soon enough.

 

[Abendrot]

I thought that the research about Denmark was because there was a sense of trust in society. I'll go look for it online, but there was a large-scale study spanning decades and many countries and the only correlation found was between happiness and level of trust in a society. The specifics of financial success and political system were inconsistent in the result implying they are not the root source of happiness. All I know is that I watched a documentary about this research study in a class.

Let me know if you find anything. I'm interested as well.

Although I do think that mutual respect for people regardless of social status is not a celebration of mediocrity

I don't think this in itself is a celebration of mediocrity. I think that ideally, all people should be treated with a certain degree of respect, so long as they fulfill their potential (I believe that people have unequal potential). Ideally, I'd also like accomplished and virtuous people to inspire others by example and raise them up, instead of scorning those who are beneath them, but reality is reality, and I suppose that scorn can also motivate people to better themselves.

My problem with the Law of Jante is not that it respects people who are lower on the totem pole. Rather, it seems to me that it has a tendency to perceive those who realize their potential as being somehow guilty of breaking the social pact, and hold them in derision instead of celebrating them. This discourages people from bettering themselves.

The pressure to reach potential and be number 1 in order to be valued is a perfect way to destroy potential in many human beings. The conception of a "number 1" is also like chasing a rainbow - it doesn't exist in the natural
world in the same way it is conceived of in human competition.

I agree, and there are countries (especially in East Asia) where the degree of competition has reached the point of negative returns, but I don't think that the US is among them, and I certainly don't think Canada (my country) is.

I'll debate you on this [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] because I do think that the current conception of success is morally wrong and ineffective to help people reach their full potential.

I think that there is an ideal degree of competition that is most conducive to the realization of potential. I've personally experienced the destructiveness of overcompetition within the academic rat race, and know that it is not desirable. I am not concerned about the degree of competition in North American society (I think it is good enough), but I do think it important to ensure that people compete over the right things. This will have to be regulated through culture.

What specifically do you think is morally wrong about encouraging success? Our positions may be more alike than you think.

Part of success is even doing menial work with pride and having that be the natural mode of operating.

I agree with you on this. I feel a good deal of respect for people who do their work dutifully and competently, even if it is menial in nature.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What specifically do you think is morally wrong about encouraging success? Our positions may be more alike than you think.

There is probably a good chance we are more on the same page.

There is a growing obsession with "success" in American culture and what happens when people become obsessed with "success" is that they pursue it at all costs - including faking image in place of success, damaging their healthy and their psychological well-being. I've spent years in competitive environments and I'd have to sit down a while to organize all my thoughts about it, but there are some fundamental problems that I feel work against the true nature of reaching human potential.

Image focus is the first issue. If a person can provide the appearance of success, it is experienced as the equivalent of achievement. One can look at celebrity to see this focus on vapid "success". Having conversations with hyper-competitive people typically boils down to a competition of image. Who can use language to appear more successful than the other person. I find this abstraction of success very frustrating because it is quicker to just know the truth. For myself I have achieved certain levels of success and not others, and the same is true for anyone I meet. Nothing is accomplished by winning a conversation, but something is accomplished by communicating truth and reality. If a person can have genuine respect for people both above and below them on the ladder of success, then there is no fear of just stating the facts without all of the distortion to reality.

Diminishing returns of over-pursuing success is a second big issue. When people work themselves to death to succeed by staying at the office for ungodly amounts of time, damaging their heath, etc. then in the end it is simply not possible to accomplish your full potential. If you push too hard and make yourself sick, you achieve diminishing returns on your potential. There is a growing obsession in American culture to get infants into the best daycare, the best preschool, K-12 programs that cost $20K a year, and then the Ivy League where they can double major and dominate two fields. There is an aspect to this hyper-work ethic than can sometimes achieve a lot on paper, but the human brain and body are finite mechanisms that have a "sweet spot" amount of expending enough energy to reach potential without damaging the system. I do not think people can reach their creative and inventive potentials when they are worked to the bone in this manner. More is not always better. More does not always produce greater results.

Worthiness of self being dependent on external measures of success is a third big issue. On a personal level I had a wonderful opportunity to have a parent who admired me and told me I could achieve anything, but also communicated that she would love me even if I were a complete failure. I never felt like acceptance depended on what I achieved and as a result i fared much better than my socio-economic status would have dictated. For people who cannot experience self-respect in the face of failure, they carry an extra heavy baggage throughout life that can only weigh down their efforts to become a fully realized individual.

My impression is that generally (perhaps not for every person) people need to have a sense of freedom and personal ownership of their life and being to achieve their full potential. This includes having permission to fail both in the pursuit of achievement and to fail at the choices we make. If we do not own our destiny, then how can we create and be fully our own selves?

 

[Mole]

For the first time in human history we have conquered scarcity. But our manners and mores and our way of thinking have not caught up. So we drive forward looking in the rear vision mirror at scarcity, while plenty is rushing towards us through the windshield.

Our problem now is psychological: how to change our minds when the facts change.

 

[Aouli]

When most people say love they mean infatuation/romantic love, so I'm disregarding familial love etc here. I think many people when depressed might be tempted to use the emotion of love/infatuation as a sort of escape from their feelings of emptiness. BUT these feelings will still be present after the infatuation fades. And your depression will still be something you need to face. Its much easier to have a healthy relationship when both individuals are healthy themselves. Someone who is depressed is not a healthy person, and your unhealthiness will affect your relations. Thats just the way it is. Now of course there is no such thing as a perfectly healthy person and in the end its up to you to decide whether its a good idea to pursue love or to focus on yourself. To me its not so much about being worthy of love as it is about being able to maintain healthy relationships with others. Especially in a romantic setting which can be very intense with emotional highs and lows.

 

[Agent Washington]

Man, I missed a lot of this thread, and I probably won't go back to look through all of it to see what I missed. Sounds like some interesting points I won't consider on my own has been brought up. I'll go back to the original post:

1.What I understand of this post: The concern, of course, is with the concept of love and people with depression, and what message society is sending even with well-intentioned self-help maxims.

2.In very short summary, I think we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to approaching this idea and problem. And I think it's fundamentally wrong to send these messages and imply that love, something that most of humanity strives for, is something to be earned as a condition of some status.

3. I have other thoiughts about this but I haven't developed them well enough yet. I'm thinking of instances of communities that's just formed, but I don't think I've looked into them deeply enough to say anything about it. Also, the mechanics of human love anda cceptance are so complex.

4. I believe that love should not be for a state or condition. But also, loving someone is also a choice on part of the lover, not the lovee, you get the drift.

5. On some level, I do believe that all of humanity has a responsibility to love on eanother, and all social forms should reflect and encourage this.

6. I'm going home

 

[kotoshinohaisha]

Well my two yen for that is, every one is worthy of love whatever state you are in.. Depressed or full.

I will speak based on my own experience and preferences. I kinda relate to "love yourself first before loving someone" shitty thing. It's actually a reminder for me that i don't need to depend my happiness in a relationship, and i don't need someone depending their own happiness to me too.. Simply because it's destructive.

When I'm broken i used to give my all to that someone. I have that mentality, "he's gonna save me from this shit I'm trapped into" well, if that someone is also depressed, then both of you will get trapped on a box. As for me, i like someone with a clearer mind to remind me, hey what you're doing is wrong. To support me. To.make me a better person. I don't need someone to dragged with his hell. XD

And i also don't want someone to be dragged down by my hell. I think relationship would not be gonna healthy on that point.

Which i actually experienced.. I really thought I'm flawed that i had my relationship with someone more flawed than me. The result? Well long term depression. [emoji14] i didn't get any better. We're trapped in a box.

That's why i wanna be mentally healthy all the time so i can get a partner which i think i can handle his emotions or shits.. Well i don't care about emotional partners actually as long as we lift up each other.. We're both willing to be the better version of ourselves. And we become better version of ourselves when we're together.

So there there.. For me, I'm not worthy of any love or i don't wanna accept love if I'm depressed or mentally ill. I have to fix myself. For sure.

 

[Abendrot]

Image focus is the first issue. If a person can provide the appearance of success, it is experienced as the equivalent of achievement. One can look at celebrity to see this focus on vapid "success". Having conversations with hyper-competitive people typically boils down to a competition of image. Who can use language to appear more successful than the other person. I find this abstraction of success very frustrating because it is quicker to just know the truth. For myself I have achieved certain levels of success and not others, and the same is true for anyone I meet. Nothing is accomplished by winning a conversation, but something is accomplished by communicating truth and reality. If a person can have genuine respect for people both above and below them on the ladder of success, then there is no fear of just stating the facts without all of the distortion to reality.

I can't agree more. At some point, the focus of competition switches over from accomplishment to outward appearance of accomplishment. I wonder if the degree of competition is to blame (in North America, anyhow), a lot of it is due to pop culture, which really is a manifestation of the lowest common denominator, essentially.

Diminishing returns of over-pursuing success is a second big issue. When people work themselves to death to succeed by staying at the office for ungodly amounts of time, damaging their heath, etc. then in the end it is simply not possible to accomplish your full potential. If you push too hard and make yourself sick, you achieve diminishing returns on your potential. There is a growing obsession in American culture to get infants into the best daycare, the best preschool, K-12 programs that cost $20K a year, and then the Ivy League where they can double major and dominate two fields. There is an aspect to this hyper-work ethic than can sometimes achieve a lot on paper, but the human brain and body are finite mechanisms that have a "sweet spot" amount of expending enough energy to reach potential without damaging the system. I do not think people can reach their creative and inventive potentials when they are worked to the bone in this manner. More is not always better. More does not always produce greater results.

I see. So your position is the same as mine: one which seeks to optimize the realization of potential.

I know all too well that overworking does not produce good results. I remember, during my first year at University, I managed to get an excellent gpa, but I had studied so hard that I really wrecked my health amd ended up with tinnitus. My performance fell a lot after that. My mental health also deterioriated and more or less plateaued until I graduated from University. I did the same thing during my internship and worked overtime every day. Basically, I've learned the hard way that I should work smart, instead of working hard, and also that health is ultimately the most important.

Worthiness of self being dependent on external measures of success is a third big issue. On a personal level I had a wonderful opportunity to have a parent who admired me and told me I could achieve anything, but also communicated that she would love me even if I were a complete failure. I never felt like acceptance depended on what I achieved and as a result i fared much better than my socio-economic status would have dictated. For people who cannot experience self-respect in the face of failure, they carry an extra heavy baggage throughout life that can only weigh down their efforts to become a fully realized individual.

My impression is that generally (perhaps not for every person) people need to have a sense of freedom and personal ownership of their life and being to achieve their full potential. This includes having permission to fail both in the pursuit of achievement and to fail at the choices we make. If we do not own our destiny, then how can we create and be fully our own selves?

I disagree with you here: There need be external and objective markers of worthiness. That is not to say that people should not have an independent valuation of themselves, but that people cannot be expected to agree with individuals on their subjective self-valuation.

Regardless, I do believe that people need to learn how to deal with failure, and how to learn from it, instead of beating themselves up over it.

Your mother had an interesting style of parenting, one which I'm skeptical of, as I am concerned that it may breed complacency. However if it worked out in your case, that suggests to me that it has its merits. I do like how she made you unafraid of failure, because success is not possible without experimentation and inevitably, failure. I can understand your position better now.