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  1. #21
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I don't understand why it's overemphasized.

    First of all, what does love for others mean? To me, it means love for the personhood of others. So what does love of self mean? Love of self is basically the same thing, applied to one's own personhood. It's basically seeing oneself as a person worthy of love like anyone else. At least that is how I understand it.
    But everyone is worthy of love so seeing yourself as worthy of it doesn't mean anything.

    People talk about what love is and is not. "Love is action" and whatever kind of BS they believe it is. It comes from how you feel about a person - from a deep place of caring and acceptance. I don't think it's something that can be easily defined but generally you know when you are being loved. There is concrete evidence and you feel it intuitively. Some people seem to misinterpret the signals coming from the other person as a result of being on a kind of different wavelength though.

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  2. #22
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    But everyone is worthy of love so seeing yourself as worthy of it doesn't mean anything.
    But it might be useful to someone who is depressed. It's not so much that seeing yourself as worthy of love is a revelation, but it might be a realization, if I'm making sense. Because there is ample evidence to show what causes depression is aggression turned inward, towards the self, learning to treat yourself with respect can prove important. But I agree, some people may not need to learn this. It's a contextual thing. I don't think "love yourself" can be used a general principle. It can help some people who don't love themselves though, if it helps them come to the realization of just how hostile towards themselves they actually are.

    People talk about what love is and is not. "Love is action" and whatever kind of BS they believe it is. It comes from how you feel about a person. I don't think it's something that can be easily defined but generally you know when you are being loved. There is concrete evidence and you feel it intuitively. Some people seem to misinterpret the signals coming from the other person as a result of being on a kind of different wavelength though.
    Yeah, I agree it's not easy to define and for the record I'm not interested in defining it. I think it can be healthy to make yourself feel that love coming from yourself. It's not mutually exclusive to feeling love from others or to loving others.

  3. #23
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    But it might be useful to someone who is depressed. It's not so much that seeing yourself as worthy of love is a revelation, but it might be a realization, if I'm making sense. Because there is ample evidence to show what causes depression is aggression turned inward, towards the self, learning to treat yourself with respect can prove important. But I agree, some people may not need to learn this. It's a contextual thing. I don't think "love yourself" can be used a general principle. It can help some people who don't love themselves though, if it helps them come to the realization of just how hostile towards themselves they actually are.



    Yeah, I agree it's not easy to define and for the record I'm not interested in defining it. I think it can be healthy to make yourself feel that love coming from yourself. It's not mutually exclusive to feeling love from others or to loving others.
    I find it interesting that the "thinkers" are referring to love as a feeling, and I'm a "feeler" over here referring to love as a choice/commitment/acceptance thing.

    I think truthfully it has to be a combination of both or it will be lacking. Love that is based on only feelings will not last because feelings fluctuate. And choosing to be with someone everyday and fully accept them, even if reciprocated, will be lacking if there is no feeling/deep connection... I know I'm kind of stating the obvious here.

    Obviously, I suffer from depression. Anxiety is an old friend, but the veil of depression started clouding my vision just 2 years ago. I'm 31 years old... that's kinda fucking weird to find yourself suddenly dealing with depression. Most depressed people I know are seasoned pros, so to speak, so it can be awkward and scary to find yourself suddenly lacking resiliency and self-esteem/worth/acceptance/love/insert whatever term necessary at a not-so-young age. I always considered myself a *very* resilient person beforehand and never lacked confidence in my relationships. Then, I married a wack-job who basically destroyed that part of me, and learning how to rebuild it has been by far the biggest challenge of my life. Ironically, I'm actually quite attractive by many societal standards, but as with loving others, it takes more than just good looks to love yourself. I also think that maybe I have a touch of "ugly duck syndrome." I digress.

    What else besides feelings and "choosing" is crucial to love? I think my answer would be trust and respect. So, maybe it's not as much about "loving" yourself, because as we've established, it's difficult to even define love. So, maybe it is more about trusting and respecting yourself. If I don't trust myself, how can I trust that my feelings for my partner are real? How can I then trust that my partner's feelings for me are real if I'm feeling ambiguous about it at times? If I don't respect myself, I probably won't have solid boundaries set in place and I will probably be unable to respect my partner's boundaries too.

    I still maintain that in addition to the almost undefinable feelings of love, it boils down to acceptance. "I see your missing pieces, and I still love you." This can be applied within or to others. Think about it... what happens when you don't accept something? You react. You get defensive. You may even lie or lash out in anger. These are things we've all done with ourselves and others, and they are the ultimate love killer.

  4. #24
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    I meant to quote Highlander's comments too, but I still barely know what I'm doing, haha. You're both thinkers, and that's what I was getting at.

  5. #25
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Another thinker who has a hard time conceptualizing "self-love", wandering into this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    I find it interesting that the "thinkers" are referring to love as a feeling, and I'm a "feeler" over here referring to love as a choice/commitment/acceptance thing.
    Wondering if this is because thinkers are more likely to come at this from a perspective of already having the logical, structural processes in place, but lacking the emotion itself -- and feelers vice versa. Huge generalization, obviously. In fact I'm wondering if it's J vs. P, because Fe-users are equally structure>feelings in a lot of ways. The ExFJs I know are harsher with their own emotions than the ExTJs I know (myself included).

    Anyway. I honestly can't conceptualize what it would be like to feel love towards yourself. It's to the point that I wonder if that feeling -- of loving yourself -- is normal. Is this a new concept? People talk about it as if it is necessary. And I'm sure it is. But I wonder what it has been referred to in the past. I wonder if there is other, less jargony, language, that describes how this feels.

    Hah, I hope you still like where this thread is going. Seems a bit derailed, albeit in an interesting way.
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  6. #26
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Another thinker who has a hard time conceptualizing "self-love", wandering into this thread.



    Wondering if this is because thinkers are more likely to come at this from a perspective of already having the logical, structural processes in place, but lacking the emotion itself -- and feelers vice versa. Huge generalization, obviously. In fact I'm wondering if it's J vs. P, because Fe-users are equally structure>feelings in a lot of ways. The ExFJs I know are harsher with their own emotions than the ExTJs I know (myself included).

    Anyway. I honestly can't conceptualize what it would be like to feel love towards yourself. It's to the point that I wonder if that feeling -- of loving yourself -- is normal. Is this a new concept? People talk about it as if it is necessary. And I'm sure it is. But I wonder what it has been referred to in the past. I wonder if there is other, less jargony, language, that describes how this feels.

    Hah, I hope you still like where this thread is going. Seems a bit derailed, albeit in an interesting way.
    Yes, I do like where it is going. I can appreciate an organic change of flow in the conversation.
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  7. #27
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    Yes, I do like where it is going. I can appreciate an organic change of flow in the conversation.
    Good. just making sure. After all, sometimes I, personally, DON'T like an organic change of flow in the conversation. #sjstereotypes #sometimestheyareaccurate
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  8. #28
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    that's kinda fucking weird to find yourself suddenly dealing with depression....

    I always considered myself a *very* resilient person beforehand
    I'm exactly the same and had the same thing happen to me out of the blue five years ago after never experiencing it before. At least you have a good reason . I really did not though it was triggered by something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    I still maintain that in addition to the almost undefinable feelings of love, it boils down to acceptance. "I see your missing pieces, and I still love you." This can be applied within or to others. Think about it... what happens when you don't accept something? You react. You get defensive. You may even lie or lash out in anger. These are things we've all done with ourselves and others, and they are the ultimate love killer.
    I do think that acceptance and being able to forgive are things that come easier to some people than others. So the issue with this definition is for those people who have a tough time with that. Does it mean they cannot love others? I'm not so sure.

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  9. #29
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    "Love yourself before loving another."
    "Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."
    "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
    "Learn how to be alone and like it."
    Etc., etc., etc....
    my first thought is, it is BS. It's like someone who runs over to a guy in a wheelchair saying, what's wrong why don't you use the stairs? Or stop complaining, you should love yourself. Well that there is the problem, the person who is saying that is not hearing the person who is complaining. Validation is important.

    Reminds me of this movie:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    While there is certainly truth to these statements, it's simply not that easy for depressed individuals to consistently manifest these thoughts and feelings. They too deserve to be loved. As long as you've worked through any destructive behavior and you're mature enough to treat a potential lover with respect while respecting your own boundaries, then I say you are free to pursue a relationship, preferably with someone who acknowledges and accepts your depression and is willing to do their best to stand next to you when things get a little tough."

    Depression is a sneaky bitch. It comes and it goes and then it comes back again just when you're thinking "oh hey... I think I finally beat this, I've been feeling pretty good for months." It lies to you, and for awhile you believe it. That's why it hurts so fucking bad. Does this mean that you are a failure who doesn't deserve love? My answer is a firm "NO." Some people are inherently more depressed when they are single. Depression also tends to come with a generous portion of guilt and shame. Reinforcing the belief that you are unworthy of love if if you cannot master happiness alone offers little more than a catalyst for darkness for those who suffer from depression.

    Love is not a feeling. Sure, plenty of feelings accompany love, but the wisest amongst us have realized that love is an act; a decision you make repeatedly to your best abilities, even in the face of challenge. It is choosing another person everyday, so long as boundaries are not being crossed in a disrespectful manner. Love is understanding, forgiveness, and holding space for another you care about deeply.

    Here is another personal definition of love I posted to my Facebook page not long ago:

    "You can be broken, with bits of you falling away as you move through this world. When you find someone else, they can be broken too. Together, you can look at the debris behind and around both of you, acknowledging it and proclaiming 'I see your missing pieces and I still love you.' What you CANNOT do, under ANY circumstances, is pick up any fallen pieces of you or your lover and throw it at them. It doesn't matter who originally owned the piece you picked up; you're the one who used it as a weapon. That is not love. That is seeing a void and wanting to use pain to magnify it, and it is fucked up. It's also human, so add it to the rest of the debris and move on.
    If you can do this, and you've found someone you really like who can do this, then congratulations; you've found love."

    Let the discussion begin...
    I don't know about that, if you are stating something as fact, but the other person perceiving it as criticism, then really who is at fault now? Are you saying that people cannot state facts? Or are you saying that there is a time and a place for it? Are you saying, that it is a weapon, because the person mentioning it, knows that it can be done better, and we shouldn't state things that can be done better? Or are we suppose to just let things slide constantly? And then there is that thing I said about silencing people, now the other party isn't allowed to talk, they are not being heard because of the fear of sounding of how they will be perceived. Now how is that helping. Things don't get better if we don't talk about it. Is the answer tact?
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  10. #30
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    I think that the word " love" is often used incorrectly. I think that people assume love the extreme form of "like".

    But I think that love and like are two entirely different things.
    To me it is easier to love than like. I can think of many people whom I love but do not like. Love-in it's most simple of. forms is a basic human right. To love means to wish no ill-will, to believe that people have the right to have and to be considered, to live and be treated with at least a modicum of respect and dignity. In this manner I'd say I love the vast majority of the human race. But at the same time I strongly dislike a 90% of them.

    If you apply the same to yourself then self love is simple: you deserve to be here ( as much as anyone else) you deserve to be treated with the same basic respect and dignity as anyone else.
    These are very simple things and without them I don't think anyone can really function in society.
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