Debate: Worthiness of Love and Depression

[Firebird 8118]

Let me share with all of you a small story:

Today I did my best to keep the kitchen clean, with tremendous help from my brother. When an open bag of sugar fell, I cleaned up the mess as best as I could. And by the time Mom (she's an ENTJ btw) came home, the clean dishes were all put away and the counters virtually spotless.

I prepared an egg sandwich the wrong way, and everything went down from there. I had to go back to the kitchen after being scolded. While coming back upstairs, I slipped and almost fell but reassured Mom that the plate was all right. I was scolded again for not being careful while walking, because she was more worried about me than about the plate.

I went back downstairs to the kitchen again to clean up, and at this point I started crying - "My efforts went a waste again," I thought. Then I was called back upstairs.

Mom asked me to sit down in front of her. (Now, whenever she tells me to sit with her, I know it's for a heart-to-heart talk because she knows I have very low self-esteem.) Her words were along these lines - "I'm worried about you because of this attitude towards yourself that you're developing. Forget about the mistakes made, why are you so afraid of making mistakes? I've seen you tripping all the time these past few years... I want you to build confidence in yourself. I've seen the world out there, you and your brother haven't seen it as yet. I don't want people stepping all over you. Do you understand?" She went on to tell me that I need to do a positive self-talk every day, to boost my confidence and love myself...

This is my mom's way of saying "I love you enough to prepare you to face this cruel world. I love you enough to make you strong." I'm on the verge of tears again, not because I'm upset but because I understand now how important it is to love myself and (essentially) value my existence.

Thanks Mom.

 

[chubber]

[mention=20044]chubber[/mention] - I think I see what you are saying. I guess I was metaphorically trying to say that we are all going to be able to spot insecurities and fears in our partners eventually, but if you choose to use those as a point of criticism, you are essentially adding to their pain instead of loving them. If those insecurities/fears are leading to unhealthy coping mechanism or mistreatment toward you, then yes - you should respectfully communicate this to your partner and establish boundaries that make you comfortable. When those boundaries are repeatedly crossed, it's no longer "love."

I think if you reach a point where you have to create boundaries within a relationship where you are supposed to be open and exposed to a person in your life then it is basically over. Boundaries isn't the answer when it comes to relationships, it feels like a scapegoat word being used to put it on the "other stuff" pile. Meaning they don't have to deal with it, "creating space". Partners are supposed to listen to each other and be vulnerable, interdependence is a real thing. Those that want to be independent, usually use the escape word "boundaries". We're not talking about someone who gets beaten up because her husband is a drunk. It takes two to tango.

How to listen to each other by Hedy Schleifer.

 

[Firebird 8118]

I think if you reach a point where you have to create boundaries within a relationship where you are supposed to be open and exposed to a person in your life then it is basically over. Boundaries isn't the answer when it comes to relationships, it feels like a scapegoat word being used to put it on the "other stuff" pile. Meaning they don't have to deal with it, "creating space". Partners are supposed to listen to each other and be vulnerable, interdependence is a real thing. Those that want to be independent, usually use the escape word "boundaries". We're not talking about someone who gets beaten up because her husband is a drunk. It takes two to tango.

How to listen to each other by Hedy Schleifer.

Hey there, long time no see

If a relationship is deep enough to where both people are open with each other and respectful of each other's needs and all, then boundaries would seem unnecessary here due to the high amount of trust. If a relationship is still quite new, on the other hand, then some boundaries need to be kept.

For example, in the beginning a person can set boundaries on being touched where he/she doesn't want to be touched - the partner must respect that until the time comes when that person is more at ease. Or a person may wish to withhold on sex during the first 90 days of dating someone; this boundary weeds out those who are looking for a quick hookup rather than a long-term commitment. (Keep in mind, not all boundaries are necessarily physical. I just found this example easier to explain. )

 

[chubber]

Hey there, long time no see

If a relationship is deep enough to where both people are open with each other and respectful of each other's needs and all, then boundaries would seem unnecessary here due to the high amount of trust. If a relationship is still quite new, on the other hand, then some boundaries need to be kept.

For example, in the beginning a person can set boundaries on being touched where he/she doesn't want to be touched - the partner must respect that until the time comes when that person is more at ease. Or a person may wish to withhold on sex during the first 90 days of dating someone; this boundary weeds out those who are looking for a quick hookup rather than a long-term commitment. (Keep in mind, not all boundaries are necessarily physical. I just found this example easier to explain. )

That's a coping mechanism, do you really think that is right in doing that to the other person? Those are needs and expectations that needs to be communicated up front. You can't enter a relationship and then control the other person through sex because of the expectations that was never communicated up front. If they don't align it's bail time.

 

[Firebird 8118]

That's a coping mechanism, do you really think that is right in doing that to the other person? Those are needs and expectations that needs to be communicated up front. You can't enter a relationship and then control the other person through sex because of the expectations that was never communicated up front. If they don't align it's bail time.

I said nothing about "controlling" anyone through sex. It could just be a person's choice, why would you want to break that boundary against their will?

I'm personally a virgin, and not afraid to admit that either. I've made the choice to lose the V-card only after marriage. If the person I'm with can't respect my choice on this, then what is the guarantee that that person will respect my choice regarding other matters? If I can respect a person's boundaries, that person should respect mine too, until the time comes when no boundaries are necessary.

 

[ceecee]

And what if you don't fully love yourself, does that mean you don't deserve love at all? I don't think we have to be 100% perfectly okay with ourselves to find love. Nobody is completely perfect when they find friends, or a job, or whatever else in life, right? So why do we have to be 100% when it comes to love? That's ridiculous.

No one is asking for perfect, no one is perfect. I never said that, you did. You obviously have this all figured out. Good for you.

 

[VILLANELLE]

No one is asking for perfect, no one is perfect. I never said that, you did. You obviously have this all figured out. Good for you.

Well with this type of question I always interpret it as someone who fully loves themselves and all that crap and it's a little hurtful, even if I know not to believe it. It's like, fuck, man. I'm already trying my best.

 

[nonsequitur]

I appreciate your insight. I have been physically away from my abusive ex for over 2 years, but I can never really truly "get away" because we have 2 kids together. Our divorce was finalized like a week ago. He still harasses me in typical psychological abuser fashion via text message. I do my best to completely ignore it but sometimes what he says still sinks in deeper than I would like. Recovery takes time but I'm really happy with where I am today and know I'm only going to get stronger. If there is a positive to it, it's that I now know exactly what my boundaries are and I am quite adept at spotting red flags. I also have become quite passionate about spreading awareness about psychological abuse and its effects, such as depression and complex-PTSD. I guess when I said "missing pieces," I meant insecurities and fears. As an INFJ, I can usually figure out what people are afraid of or at least how their past experiences have affected them emotionally and mentally. To me, there is no greater act of love than seeing those parts of someone and consciously choosing to NEVER use them against someone. (This is separate from confronting unhealthy coping mechanisms or mistreatment toward others). That's easier said than done, but in my opinion, that's the real-life example of not focusing on the dark spots of a painting.

It's hard when there are kids. And I know what you mean. It had been 3 years since I had any contact, and I was thinking that I was a lot stronger, had experienced a lot more, that I was stable. Just a single request on linked in from him last year made me wobble. It's hard to be completely unaffected because there are old habits of behaviour that are written into our brains. The response is almost automatic because it's happened so many times before.

Yep, being able to draw boundaries clearly and spot red flags is a great positive! Also good on you for spreading awareness about all of these issues - like you, I speak about my experiences because it's healing on my side. What helps when you have your trust broken isn't never trusting again, but connecting to others, and healing the wound together.

The bolded: To me, that's not love. That conscious commitment is an ethical one to be a trustworthy and kind person. Not using personal information against others is the right thing to do.

I agree with most all of what you said. To put things a little differently though if I am a birch tree I am susceptible to birch borers. Oak trees and willows are susceptible to neither. What can be a hurricane to one person, another can bounce back from easily. What I have learned is that resilience is like this. Separately with respect to your other point, when you lose a significant early relationship, you can feel like you've lost a part of yourself. I don't know if it is lost innocence or what but I think that is very real. The ability to trust without reservation is a thing which can be lost or made much more difficult for example. They don't have to be a whack job. It can be a betrayal of trust or maybe not even that - just some kind of breach of loyalty, an aspect of which you have built up in your own mind. The point is that we own our experience to those things that occur around us. We may not be able to control our reactions and feelings but we need to own the fact that they are our reactions and feelings. We tend to blame others for what has happened to us which is not always the most effective thing to do because it fails to help us take any personal responsibility or recognize what we can do differently moving forward. Sometimes outcomes ARE someone else's fault. In either case grief is grief and regardless as to whose fault anything is, it can be very difficult and the response to it is very much individualized.

I agree, I was speaking in a more general sense. Often, manipulation is effective precisely because it's a birch borer - it's specific to the individual. There are few who would use manipulation as a blunt tool in an indiscriminate fashion to get their way - these individuals can be spotted a mile away and are avoided by everyone. The "hurricane" is usually a personal one.

I struggled a bit with the choice between the words "ignorance" and "innocence" in my original reply, but went with the former because of the age connotations tied to the latter. This can happen to anyone at any age. Not only is it a loss of the ability to trust without reservation, you also lose the ability to trust your own judgment because you allowed that person in, and in a way, you blame yourself for it. That's a part of the healing process as well - recognising that everyone makes mistakes, including yourself, and you might again in the future, but you'll be more well-equipped to identify it and take action to protect yourself.

I also agree that they don't have to be a nut job, and that there's 2 sides to every story. When it's very raw, we need to make things clear to understand what happened and move forwards. With time (like now, 4 years of distance between us), I can see that he is as complex and as human as I am. If we were to assign responsibility and blame, I could find reasons and justifications to push all of it on to him - but that does neither him nor me any good at this point. I'm not bitter anymore, I've moved on, and I wish him well. I would never use my knowledge of him against him either (this is in reference to [MENTION=31348]RareBird[/MENTION]'s assertion that this is love. It's not, it's simply being a decent human being.). In forgiving his mistakes, I can also forgive my own. However, if I ever see him treat someone else like that again, I will not let it stand. I will also never let anyone treat me like that again. It's not about love and trust, it has to do with basic self-respect.

I think if you reach a point where you have to create boundaries within a relationship where you are supposed to be open and exposed to a person in your life then it is basically over. Boundaries isn't the answer when it comes to relationships, it feels like a scapegoat word being used to put it on the "other stuff" pile. Meaning they don't have to deal with it, "creating space". Partners are supposed to listen to each other and be vulnerable, interdependence is a real thing. Those that want to be independent, usually use the escape word "boundaries". We're not talking about someone who gets beaten up because her husband is a drunk. It takes two to tango.

I strongly disagree. In theory that may be the case. However, relationships are not one and the same, and power dynamics exist. There must be boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. For example: if I'm not feeling well because of my period, and I tell my partner that, and he uses that information later on to dismiss my anger/reaction to something that is important to me. That is unacceptable. It's very common, certainly, but to me, shows a basic lack of respect for the feelings of the other person. Similarly, society imposes the expectation on men that they have to be strong, have to be the primary income-provider within the family. It is also unacceptable for women to use their financial strength/independence to put their partner down and dismiss his views.

Marriage is a lot of things at once, and the basic trust implied by the knowledge of intimacy means that when disagreement arises, there MUST be no-go zones because you value your partner over "winning" the disagreement. These are by definition "boundaries". However. In many marriages and relationships, one or both parties get emotional and lash out. To avoid getting hurt, many simply prefer to keep personal information to themselves. Couples who draw clear boundaries or keep secrets stay together for many reasons, including for the welfare of their kids, or because financially it's necessary. Doesn't make that relationship "non-existent" or "over".

 

[ceecee]

Well with this type of question I always interpret it as someone who fully loves themselves and all that crap and it's a little hurtful, even if I know not to believe it. It's like, fuck, man. I'm already trying my best.

You are confusing ability with deserving. No where did I say you (or anyone else) doesn't deserve love.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I struggled a bit with the choice between the words "ignorance" and "innocence" in my original reply, but went with the former because of the age connotations tied to the latter. This can happen to anyone at any age. Not only is it a loss of the ability to trust without reservation, you also lose the ability to trust your own judgment because you allowed that person in, and in a way, you blame yourself for it. That's a part of the healing process as well - recognising that everyone makes mistakes, including yourself, and you might again in the future, but you'll be more well-equipped to identify it and take action to protect yourself.

[MENTION=5076]nonsequitur[/MENTION] - Yes, I have some pretty serious trust issues and that is what ultimately led to the demise of the relationship I attempted after leaving my ex-husband. It is also part of the reason why I am intentionally single at the moment; I want to work through some of this stuff alone before entering another relationship, even though at times it's painful and lonely. I have time... it's been about 3 months since we broke up and I didn't move out until 7 weeks ago. Maybe in another few months I'll be ready to get out there again.

**Originally Posted by chubber View Post
I think if you reach a point where you have to create boundaries within a relationship where you are supposed to be open and exposed to a person in your life then it is basically over. Boundaries isn't the answer when it comes to relationships, it feels like a scapegoat word being used to put it on the "other stuff" pile. Meaning they don't have to deal with it, "creating space". Partners are supposed to listen to each other and be vulnerable, interdependence is a real thing. Those that want to be independent, usually use the escape word "boundaries". We're not talking about someone who gets beaten up because her husband is a drunk. It takes two to tango.**

I strongly disagree. In theory that may be the case. However, relationships are not one and the same, and power dynamics exist. There must be boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. For example: if I'm not feeling well because of my period, and I tell my partner that, and he uses that information later on to dismiss my anger/reaction to something that is important to me. That is unacceptable. It's very common, certainly, but to me, shows a basic lack of respect for the feelings of the other person. Similarly, society imposes the expectation on men that they have to be strong, have to be the primary income-provider within the family. It is also unacceptable for women to use their financial strength/independence to put their partner down and dismiss his views.

I completely agree with you. People are different. People are gonna fuck up. It is very important to communicate your comfort zones to your partner because you are simply going to have differences in where you "draw the line." Due to the abuse I dealt with in my marriage, I drew very clear boundaries for my ex-boyfriend. He repeatedly crossed the line in moments where he did not manage his frustration and anger. Three strikes and he was out, even though I was still in love with him.

Ffs, I better pick a better boyfriend next time, lol. Clearly I have had some poor judgement in the past.

Abuse and anger management issues aside, setting healthy boundaries could be as simple as something like "I do not like PDA, so please do not try to kiss me in public," or "I hate it when you come up behind me and jokingly poke my b-hole when I bend over." What? You've never done that last one?

 

[nonsequitur]

Yes, I have some pretty serious trust issues and that is what ultimately led to the demise of the relationship I attempted after leaving my ex-husband. It is also part of the reason why I am intentionally single at the moment; I want to work through some of this stuff alone before entering another relationship, even though at times it's painful and lonely. I have time... it's been about 3 months since we broke up and I didn't move out until 7 weeks ago. Maybe in another few months I'll be ready to get out there again.

Thanks for sharing your story here and being so open about what you're working on inside - it can't have been easy. You do sound like you're hopeful for the future though, even with the anxiety/depression. That's really a positive sign that you're rebuilding.

I completely agree with you. People are different. People are gonna fuck up. It is very important to communicate your comfort zones to your partner because you are simply going to have differences in where you "draw the line." Due to the abuse I dealt with in my marriage, I drew very clear boundaries for my ex-boyfriend. He repeatedly crossed the line in moments where he did not manage his frustration and anger. Three strikes and he was out, even though I was still in love with him.

Ffs, I better pick a better boyfriend next time, lol. Clearly I have had some poor judgement in the past.

I don't necessarily think your judgment is poor - you did love him, so obviously there was good there. What [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] says about where boundaries are drawn/how much crossing them affects an individual applies here. He might not necessarily a "bad" boyfriend in general, just not one who can serve your needs right now. It's also hard to judge if you're getting what you need unless there's a certain level of intimacy, and you made a decision to move on after deciding that it wasn't right. That's practising judgment and good sense.

"I hate it when you come up behind me and jokingly poke my b-hole when I bend over." What? You've never done that last one?

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Haha... through clothes! Not naked!!

It's my favorite thing to do to my boyfriends

 

[VILLANELLE]

You are confusing ability with deserving. No where did I say you (or anyone else) doesn't deserve love.

I don't think you did at all, I was just replying to what you said with my own question. I think people are able and deserve love regardless if they're fully content with themselves or not, but it also depends. If someone's too dependent on another person, it becomes unhealthy.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I don't think you did at all, I was just replying to what you said with my own question. I think people are able and deserve love regardless if they're fully content with themselves or not, but it also depends. If someone's too dependent on another person, it becomes unhealthy.

My self-esteem is way too dependent on the health of my relationships. I don't know how to stop doing this. I'm a 6w5 ffs... I'm constantly analyzing what's "wrong" and wondering if/when/how it will all end. I really fear losing myself in relationships at this point. BUT, that's a new revelation for me, so at least my self-awareness is growing. That's basically why I'm here... to talk about these things and expand on my awareness of self and others and everything in between.

 

[VILLANELLE]

My self-esteem is way too dependent on the health of my relationships. I don't know how to stop doing this. I'm a 6w5 ffs... I'm constantly analyzing what's "wrong" and wondering if/when/how it will all end. I really fear losing myself in relationships at this point. BUT, that's a new revelation for me, so at least my self-awareness is growing. That's basically why I'm here... to talk about these things and expand on my awareness of self and others and everything in between.

My self-esteem can get like that too. I just worry that nobody really likes me so I withdraw a lot and stuff, but nobody really notices when I do. I always want to be around people so I'm like, just, always checking social media and stuff. I tend to always be the one to reach out to people, too, because I just.. I like connecting, or whatever. Being alone for so long kind of drives me nuts, even though I do appreciate getting away from it all. I don't necessarily feel drained like the INFJ stereotypically tends to get, anymore at least. I'm like "This was fun, but I gotta get away now, I'm feeling bored" in my head.

I'm mostly here because everyone talks about mbti and I guess it's a place where I can obsess about it and figure it out once and for all. But everyone else's opinions is confusing me, but you guys aren't me and I know me. I can say that this place has been really helpful and patient with me though, I guess. And I'd even really considered leaving the forum. But I've definitely think I've figured out my enfj-ness. Like, I don't always have to be outgoing and stuff, it's not literally about that.

Um... Kind of went on a tangent there. I don't know how to stop my own esteem from being dependent on my relationships, too. I mean, I'm just really anxious about them and stuff. My esteem tends to fluctuate all the time on it's own but I feel better when I get that external validation or something. When I don't, I feel kind of shot down.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I have had major depressive issues for my entire adult life, earlier even, and incapacitating at times, and I have absolutely felt contempt for people who issued statements like those in the op when they're proffered as platitudes/easy fixes by people who have no fucking clue what it's like. It's offensive and unkind and alienating. Even if it's meant with good intentions, it's still offensive and alienating and unkind. But that being said, when it comes right down to it, I think there's a very essential truth to be gleamed in them. I do think that issues we have with ourselves that we don't uncover will interfere with our ability to care about and hear other people well. This isn't to say I think we shouldn't build relationships with others until after we've built a good relationship to our selves, but it is a very strong tendency in people to use that good feeling that comes from initially getting close to someone as a distraction to avoid the inner work; and then when the magic fades, the 'blame' is placed either on the other or (depression/internalized) it affirms some generalized sense of one's own worthlessness. The point of working on accepting/loving oneself is to become resilient to this externalizing (or depressive unproductive internalizing) that happens when conflict surfaces.

I can't remember the source he cited for this, but I recently heard on a Sam Harris podcast (Abusing Delores- the guest was Paul Bloom, author of Against Empathy) that one of the differences between empathy and compassion is that empathy can deplete us and make us exhausted, whereas compassion is a thing that only ever gets stronger when employed. It's a very common mistake to confuse them- to think that having a lot of empathy means being compassionate. (There's a semantic argument to be made here that compassion is a subset of empathy- but for the sake of understanding what I'm saying, just assume "empathy" here refers to the kind of taking on/experiencing the emotions of others as one's own without adequate detachment, while "compassion" is a sort of loving kindness that happens without drowning in another's experience or taking on the weight of their emotions as one's own.) [eta: Here's an article Bloom wrote a couple years ago, if further clarification is wanted. /eta]

I think the intended meaning of "love" behind the phrase "we can't love others until we love our-self" has to do with compassion, in this sense. I love the term maitri, as a more in-depth explanation: unconditional friendliness/kindness towards the self. When we have enough of this cultivated, then we don't need it from external sources when we're feeling low- and we don't 'blame' others or feel utterly worthless when the external environment doesn't provide it. That's why it's important, imo.


/only had time to skim through above posts, sorry if I'm just repeating someone.

 

[EJCC]

one of the differences between empathy and compassion is that empathy can deplete us and make us exhausted, whereas compassion is a thing that only ever gets stronger when employed.

This is so wise and so true. I need to print it out and frame it or something.

 

[cascadeco]

Many good comments already.

I've gone back and forth re many of the points in the OP, and there are lots of elements to it, but generally I think I tend to think that it's most important to just be with people who a)Accept where you're at, what you struggle with, who you are (and ofc vice versa), and to b)listen to yourself re matters of relationships. (Not that b) is necessarily easy).

Re listening to self... what I mean is that there have been times in my life where I totally know I'm no good in a relationship in a particular moment -- because when/if I am struggling with something, I'm completely 100% locked in my own mind and I have almost zero capacity to truly reach out and connect with another human being. So I'd be completely lousy as a partner. Arguably, being with someone could alleviate and help some of that, via talking, bonding, whatnot, but the point remains if I am struggling, I am mostly consumed selfishly (just as anyone struggling with something is 'selfishly' attending to their own needs -- I do not mean this in a negative way at all, it is what it is) with my own issues, and there's really no other way outside of that. If I am unhappy/struggling, I have no energy/positivity/strength to give anyone else. It's all being filtered to myself. Of course I would try to extend myself, but the reality is it would be sparse and I'd have little capacity like I said to really extend. There'd be a distinct lack of balance in the relationship, plain and simple.

otoh if I have an issue but am still able to reach out, connect, give just as much or more than I take, then sure, then I'd not 'ban' myself from relationships. hehe.

I think the platitudes have truth and I tend to agree with the underlying reason for them, though I also agree with the points to counter the totally black&white nature of the sayings. I think they exist as 'wisdom' against the danger of believing someone else will somehow solve for all of ones own issues/concerns, fill some vacuum, make everything better, and so on. I think there are people who struggle with things who aren't terribly aware and do seek something/someone outside themselves to 'fix' it, but then there are people who are super aware and as long as they find the right person, can be in a healthy relationship.

I do think finding a complementary person CAN actually result in mutually helping each others' problem areas, and I think ideally a relationship allows for mutual care, growth, nurture, help, and so on. And since most people have some sort of skeleton or fear/issue in their closet, it's a matter of finding that right person. So I don't think it has to be as black and white as 'Oh I struggle with X so I'm no good for anyone / I shouldn't be in a relationship at all.'

I think it's pretty individual. That said, there will be a number of people who maybe won't want to be in a relationship with the person due to whatever the issue is, but it always goes both ways.

I do think the 'Every Man For Himself'/'Be happy by yourself' line is an extreme (though ofc there's value in it), just as 'Everyone Needs Someone Else' is the opposite. Humans ARE social creatures and I honestly do think everyone is better off with other people, and while I have always been on my own and try to thus make the most of it by trying to be as happy and fulfilled without a partner as I can be, I do think we're designed to be with others and whether that's a partner or just people in general, I don't think being lonely is a terrible reason to want to look for people to interact with.

 

[chubber]

Keeping secrets?

No you're only delaying the inevitable.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I am so glad I started a profile here. You guys are saving me so much money on therapy and also helping me realize that my last relationship simply wasn't as good as I painted it to be in my mind.